Trinity Maths Application

there's been a lot of discussion about this already, search. people like synaesthesia will tell you that your chances are low, while others will tell you to apply wherever you want.

the big factor that will affect your chances of getting in or not is how good you are at maths...

Reply 2

OP

chewwy

there's been a lot of discussion about this already, search. people like synaesthesia will tell you that your chances are low, while others will tell you to apply wherever you want.

the big factor that will affect your chances of getting in or not is how good you are at maths...

I couldn't find the specific information using a search, but I suppose there might be some hidden in more general threads that's available. I've seen the more general information regarding college choice, and the debate over whether it's worth considering the ease of getting in when applying, but as far as I could see there's not specific information about Trinity maths, which is quite an interesting case owing to the big intake and tradition of mathematics there.

Reply 3

OP

Thanks for that. I guess my skills with the search function are sorely limited :frown:

EDIT: Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I suppose if so many of the places are effectively reserved for top BMO people it's maybe not the right place to look at. My own performance in the BMO was fairly poor, though I imagine a large contributor to that fact would be that my sixth form didn't offer special tuition for it like the top places. I get the feeling I'd be better off with a college that prefers potential and a strong all-round education rather than giving such high priority to students who perform well in a particular type of test.

Reply 4

OP

I'm not saying performing well in these kinds of tests makes a person one-dimensional or lacking in other areas, it's just that, like you said, a lot of the skills can be spoon-fed - I remember reading the list of top performers in the BMO when I got my result back and it was pretty much a who's who of top grammar and public schools. Clearly there's no-one who can do well in tests like the BMO with just coaching as genuine talent is needed too, but to have so many high performers from the BMO does give preference to highly coached public/grammar school students. As a personal choice I'd rather be among other students who have strong mathematical potential, but who have not as yet been trained rigorously - I don't want to feel like I'm behind the rest of the field before my degree even starts.

Reply 5

maybe the parents of children who are clever put them in private school? it's foolish to assume talent is uniform across state and private education, and that any difference in exam performance is due purely to 'spoon feeding' as you call it. why else do private schools have entrance exams?

Reply 6

friendlyneutron

11

Can I ask what the big deal is about the BMO/IMO? There doesn't seem to be as much fuss made over the Olympiads in Scotland (I did the BBO and I think there were probably <10 schools that entered people for that up here).

Reply 7

sjcballtype

Well, at the top boys school we weren't coached for the BMO (I remember being an unhappy bunny at having to do it, something to do with SMC scores...); in my year maybe 8 of us sat it, and the person who wiped the floor with the rest of us is currently in line for his triple first in Maths at Trinity. Which does kind of put forward the argument that ability at BMO type stuff may actually be correlated to how good people are at Maths - not how good they are at interview.

[Not a day goes by in which I'm not thankful for not being a mathmo :biggrin:

] (Triple negative: maybe I should be reading maths after all?)

Reply 8

OP

chewwy

maybe the parents of children who are clever put them in private school? it's foolish to assume talent is uniform across state and private education, and that any difference in exam performance is due purely to 'spoon feeding' as you call it. why else do private schools have entrance exams?

I don't think for one moment that's there's a uniformity of ability across state and private schools. It's not that I object to the system particularly, and I know that whichever college I apply to will have large numbers of public school students who are considerably better educated than I am. The reference to spoon feeding was with regards to the BMO - with most exams, like A-levels, private/grammar school students do better in general, but state students can still do equally well. With the BMO, State school students can't compete effectively unless they are lucky enough to know someone willing and capable to train them for it. Anyway, it's not some moral argument I have - I don't object to students with good BMO scores and I don't object to Trinity taking them - it's more a personal thing.

This is something I actively look forward to. To be perfectly honest, during my education I have not met people as good as me at maths, but I hope that meeting people who are better than me at university will not only help me get a real idea of where I stand, but encourage me to work better. What I don't want to feel is that I'm at a disadvantage even before the course begins, and not really by any inadequacy on my part. I'm not concerned about being the best as I know I won't be, but I am concerned about not being the worst. Of course, it can always be said that you're not competing with anyone but yourself, but I don't think anyone would willing put themself in a position where they're worse than the majority of other students at the college.

Reply 9

OP

Well, yes, I realised my comment about all round education wasn't too clever just after I posted it. It's not what I mean anyway - I want to be assessed on simple mathematical ability. I suppose what I really mean is that I want a college that doesn't mind if I haven't done all that much yet :p:

Reply 10

synaesthesia

9

Bingo - but don't forget that being trained for IMO is very very different to being trained for A levels, where it won't necessarily help your understanding. BMO/IMO training is about developing skills that then increase one's potential.

Chumbaniya

I'm not saying performing well in these kinds of tests makes a person one-dimensional or lacking in other areas, it's just that, like you said, a lot of the skills can be spoon-fed - I remember reading the list of top performers in the BMO when I got my result back and it was pretty much a who's who of top grammar and public schools.

A very large number of those will be there on scholarships. Very. If your child is talented and the state school near you is terrible, then the incentive to go private is larger because of the opportunity cost.

friendlyneutron

Can I ask what the big deal is about the BMO/IMO? There doesn't seem to be as much fuss made over the Olympiads in Scotland (I did the BBO and I think there were probably <10 schools that entered people for that up here).

The science ones attract less attention I think - the first rounds are far less accessible than the Maths Challenege?

Reply 11

synaesthesia

9

Chumbaniya

Well, yes, I realised my comment about all round education wasn't too clever just after I posted it. It's not what I mean anyway - I want to be assessed on simple mathematical ability. I suppose what I really mean is that I want a college that doesn't mind if I haven't done all that much yet :p:

They won't - but your speed at picking things up will most likely be correlated to how much you've done in the past :wink:

I don't want to deter you from applying, nor is my argument that applying to Trinity means that you won't get to go to Cambridge given the pooling system; I just want to point out the rather idiosyncratic tradition prevalent in Trinity when there. If Maths at Cambridge is your aim, by all means go for it. But if you want to like your college, your chances of being pooled from Trinity are probably greater than acceptance and of course, you won't have a say in where.

Reply 12

OP

synaesthesia

They won't - but your speed at picking things up will most likely be correlated to how much you've done in the past :wink:

When I say "I haven't done much yet" I mean it in a fairly relative way; naturally as a potential Cambridge applicant I do try and do some work beyond the maths and further maths syllabus, but without any particular framework for the extra work it all comes down to getting hold of a few advanced textbooks and working through parts of them.

In any case, I'm only really asking about Trinity so that I can get the full picture; Emmanuel is currently top of my list and as long as the open day goes well I'll probably be applying there.

Reply 13

mfb3000

Just to add to the BMO talk thats going on here (and to get rid of the annoying bar at the top telling me off for not posting), I'm a bit jealous of the people who get training for the BMO as I got none despite going to an outrageously expensive public school.

Reply 14

Lewi

Just to add to the BMO talk thats going on here (and to get rid of the annoying bar at the top telling me off for not posting), I'm a bit jealous of the people who get training for the BMO as I got none despite going to an outrageously expensive public school.

heh, same. i don't know if any public schools really 'train' their pupils as such. the people who get the training generally get it out of school, via those monthly sheet thingies or whatever.

i'd guess saying "ah, well, i didnt do so well in the BMO because i wasn't spoon-fed for it" wouldn't do your application any good at all...

i know. i said BMO.

I swear we had this discussion less than a week ago... :smile:

but I could be imagining it. It is true that public schools completly dominated the IMO squad from around 1960-1990 (there is a list of participants in the published book of BMO problems) however I do not know if it has improved since then.

Osborn said at the Trinity Open Day that it did not matter if you had not done BMO, "not all good Mathematicians do those kind of problems", I have no doubt people will counter this with the sentiment that he was just not trying to put people off and bluffing, and then others say he was double bluffing! Who knows??? Just do your best and good luck :p:

Reply 17

Cexy

I say screw it, and apply to Trinity if you like the look of it. I wasn't one of the people invited to Trinity to do training for the IMO squad, and I got in to Trinity and am doing very well (fourth year now, 2.1 last year, PhD next year). Likewise none of my close friends came anywhere near to the squad - in fact some of them hadn't even heard of the BMO until they came to Cambridge - and they all have firsts and 2.1s.

It's possible that there's a lower chance of getting in because you haven't done IMO, but if you're a good mathematician then you're a good mathematician, and the interviewers will notice that. My advice would be to base your application SOLELY on which college you like the look of. You can't possibly hope to get a good idea of which one will be right for you before you apply, and you'll be happy wherever you are. So make your decision on

(i) whether you want a large or a small college (Trinity is large, Emma is medium-sized)
(ii) the location (Trinity is in the centre of town, Emma is a bit further out)
(iii) which one you like the look of (both are very pretty).

Done. Sorted. Simple. Just stop stressing about it! You'll probably love it wherever you end up. :smile:

Reply 18

Speleo

7

You say 'BMO' students have a better chance; does this really include just Trinity training camp and up people, or BMO2?

(I imagine its the former)

Reply 19