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is Jesus real or a con-man watch

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    (Original post by Shaft)
    Doesn't that mean he wasn't born of the virgin mary, If he had a brother that wasn't the son of God?....Unless they adopted?

    Didn't have to be an elder brother... Jesus supposedly had many brothers and sisters, but Mary was still a virgin when she conceived Jesus. Allegedly.

    I tend to follow the view held by the majority of people on this thread - I do think Jesus the person existed and stories about him just got exaggerated over time. I don't think he was the Son of God. I heard a theory that the 'Virgin Mary' comes from an ancient typo, if you will - that 'virgin' and 'young woman' are similar words in Hebrew (though not being a scholar of the language I couldn't say for sure) and that someone misspelt it, leading to confusion and the hailing of the immaculate conception. Which is why I think that Jesus DID exist and that your comparison with Dionysos is, while apt, not necessarily the only interpretation. There's other evidence for Jesus' existence than the Gospels - I believe there's evidence that Jesus was crucified...
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    (Original post by Joey_Johns)
    Jesus was a real person, yes.

    Not everything was made up at all. A lot of it happenend, just not always the way the bible tells the story. The bible glamourises situations for its own end, or even worse blatently copies ancient stories from Ancient Greece, Egypt and Persia.
    'Jesus' was just someone who wanted to get a lot of attention and said that he was the son of the guy who created everything. this would have workrd if it wasn't for the Romans, who kiled him, the part about him coming back to life is probably just a twin who was hidden for most of the time, the sick people where only sick in thier heads so all he did was make them think properly, and everything else is just bull s**t
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    (Original post by ReturnofGnostic)
    Shaft, on that link the issue was whether Mark's Gospel is "Pauline" - ie of Paul's theological school - not that there is a Gospel called "The Pauline Gospel"
    Again, your resorting something which is as bad as telling someone they have made a typo. You know full well i'm talking about the epistles. Your just being incredibly pedantic and quite frankly pathetic.

    I agree with you on a lot of points especially the ancient stories larky. Although I will inform you most come from Persia and Egypt and not Greece. The point your making about Jesus ressurection, yes its a copy of a Greek myth. I have no doubt about that. That still doesnt mean there wasnt a man called Jesus. There is tonnes of achaelogical evidence and I would like you to name a world renound theologist who agrees with you 'myth' view point. You wont be able to find one. Jesus was a human being, what people thought of him and how they protrayed him after he died is another story all together.
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    (Original post by DJT)
    'Jesus' was just someone who wanted to get a lot of attention and said that he was the son of the guy who created everything. this would have workrd if it wasn't for the Romans, who kiled him, the part about him coming back to life is probably just a twin who was hidden for most of the time, the sick people where only sick in thier heads so all he did was make them think properly, and everything else is just bull s**t
    Your living in a dream world. Jesus never said he was the son of god.

    A twin? No thats just out and out lies by Jesus' followers.

    Oh shut up, both of you.
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    (Original post by godthebuilder)
    what do u think about the bible
    The infallible (in the original languages) Word of God; Jesus was the second person of the Godhead incarnate
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    We know from Roman Census that Jesus existed as a real man, that is for sure.

    >>What do I think about him, either he was the real deal or he was the best conman in histroy...

    Ive read Holy Blood Holy Grail and the evidence put foward in that is very justified, in that it points to the latter. Maybe the guy was trying to piss off the Romans who knows but somewhere along the way it's become out of control, next thing we know 2000 years later there are jehovas knocking on our doors at an ungodly hour on a weekend morning asking to tell us about him. (no offence to Jehovas, I like you, just not when you wake me up on the weekends when the night before ive been blind drunk, k.)

    What do I think of the Bible?

    I think that anyone who taked the word as being the truth is having the wool pulled over their eyes. The bible, like all historical works, is an edited text, a separte view of something. Throughout history there has been three separate occasions that the vatican has held a 'conference' to edit the bible and decide what went in. (In telling the truth, check your historical sources) Im not going ot take the word of an edited text as truth, ive learned that in my history class (which i LOVE to death). So i treat the bible storys as just that, stories. And there are some interesting ones in it too concearning historical content.
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    Where do you get such nonsense from??? What Roman Census???? There doesn't exist a Roman Census that says "Jesus was born X day at Y place"!
    Um yes there is. And I take great offense at you saying im making things up when I major in Ancient History. Take my adive, go to Rome and go to a museum and ASK and they will tell you, or better still, ask anyone about Roman Lectures which were held frequently in the middle-East under Roman occupation. Thats the reason that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem in the first place, to register on a Census. I suggest you read your history better my friend.

    And besides, I only said he existed as a person, I never said he was god or whatever, meerly existed as a man.
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    BLOODY HELL MATE! why the hell are you insulting me?

    I can see that my typing up an essay is not even going ot be worth my time, becuase no matter what I type you are going to say
    "Blah blah blah, Census doesnt exist, you dont know anything" . IM saving myself trouble.

    If you did have a conflicting opinion, may i suggest that next time you act in a more civil manner.

    An ill ask you kindly not to insult me or my education, thankyou.
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    who cares he was real but he was just an opium smoking long haired arab that has been blown out of proportion
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    This text is from Bertrand Russell's Why I am not a Christian Lecture. It speaks about Jesus and his teachings that are present in the bible, and I find it very very interesting (sorry if this is slightly off the current dicussion).

    (Original post by Bertrand Russell)
    The Character Of Christ

    I now want to say a few words upon a topic which I often think is not quite sufficiently dealt with by Rationalists, and that is the question whether Christ was the best and the wisest of men. It is generally taken for granted that we should all agree that that was so. I do not myself. I think that there are a good many points upon which I agree with Christ a great deal more than the professing Christians do. I do not know that I could go with Him all the way, but I could go with Him much further than most professing Christians can. You will remember that He said: "Resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." That is not a new precept or a new principle. It was used by Lao-Tse and Buddha some 500 or 600 years before Christ, but it is not a principle which as a matter of fact Christians accept. I have no doubt that the present Prime Minister, for instance, is a most sincere Christian, but I should not advise any of you to go and smite him on one cheek. I think you might find that he thought this text was intended in a figurative sense.

    Then there is another point which I consider excellent. You will remember that Christ said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." That principle I do not think you would find was popular in the law courts of Christian countries. I have known in my time quite a number of judges who were very earnest Christians, and they none of them felt that they were acting contrary to Christian principles in what they did. Then Christ says, "Give to him that asketh of thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn thou not away." This is a very good principle. Your chairman has reminded you that we are not here to talk politics, but I cannot help observing that the last general election was fought on the question of how desirable it was to turn away from him that would borrow of thee, so that one must assume that the liberals and conservatives of this country are composed of people who do not agree with the teaching of Christ, because they certainly did very emphatically turn away on that occasion.

    Then there is one other maxim of Christ which I think has a great deal in it, but I do not find that it is very popular among some of our Christian friends. He says, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor." That is a very excellent maxim, but, as I say, it is not much practiced. All these, I think, are good maxims, although they are a little difficult to live up to. I do not profess to live up to them myself; but then, after all, I am not by way of doing so, and it is not quite the same thing as for a Christian.


    Defects In Christ's Teaching

    Having granted the excellence of these maxims, I come to certain points in which I do not believe that one can grant either the superlative wisdom or the superlative goodness of Christ as depicted in the Gospels; and here I may say that one is not concerned with the historical question. Historically, it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about Him, so that I am not concerned with the historical question, which is a very difficult one. I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise. For one thing, he certainly thought his second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." Then He says: "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, "Take no thought for the morrow," and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe the second coming was imminent. I knew a parson who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians really did believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In this respect clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and he certainly was not superlatively wise.

    The Moral Problem

    Then you come to moral questions. There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance, find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.

    You will find that in the Gospels Christ said: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of this sort into the world.

    Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often. Then you all, of course, remember about the sheep and the goats; how at the second coming He is going to divide the sheep from the goats, and He is going to say to the goats: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." He continues: "And these shall go away into everlasting fire." Then He says again, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He repeats that again and again also. I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world, and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as his chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

    There are other things of less importance. There is the instance of the Gadarene swine, where it certainly was not very kind to the pigs to put the devils into them and make them rush down the hill into the sea. You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs. Then there is the curious story of the fig-tree, which always rather puzzled me. You remember what happened about the fig-tree. "He was hungry; and seeing a fig-tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find anything thereon; and when he came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it: 'No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever'.... and Peter.... saith unto Him: 'Master, behold the fig-tree which thou cursedst is withered away.'" This is a very curious story, because it was not the right time of year for figs, and you really could not blame the tree. I cannot myself feel that either in the matter of wisdom or in the matter of virtue Christ stands quite as high as some other people known to History. I think I should put Buddha and Socrates above Him in those respects.
    I think the latter paragraph on the moral problems present in the bible, certainly show Jesus was not all that he is made out to be by commited christians.
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    Thats kinda what I was saying.

    (Original post by MuniE)
    who cares he was real but he was just an opium smoking long haired arab that has been blown out of proportion
    <Holds breath and prepares for attack from x-tians...>
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    ohoh! I never thought about that... I mean it in the nicest possible way.
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    (Original post by roseonthegrave)
    <Holds breath and prepares for attack from x-tians...>
    lol if they attack me they are just being hypocrites and THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    lol if they attack me they are just being hypocrites and THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN
    you seem to have a knack for getting people angry with you in religious discussions dont you?
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    (Original post by PadFoot90)
    you seem to have a knack for getting people angry with you in religious discussions dont you?
    What Can I say, Im good at what i do
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    What Can I say, Im good at what i do
    is that something you want to be good at?
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    lol, well at least you dont get your intellegence insulted like I did.

    (Original post by MuniE)
    What Can I say, Im good at what i do
    Hey, I'll join ya. On a completely unrelated topic, here's a fun quote:

    "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world,and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
    -- Thomas Jefferson

 
 
 
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