is Jesus real or a con-man Watch

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godthebuilder
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#161
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#161
someone must have created earth
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{S}Scourge{S}
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#162
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#162
(Original post by MuniE)
hahaha because you went to church once you are now a reborn christian, and people ask me why I don't like religious people
ye that sorta thing just hapens, i think its coz i was goin for a gud reason, not because i had to to get into the scholl everyone wanted me to go to like last time, so dont be so closed minded
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{S}Scourge{S}
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#163
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(Original post by Phil_C)
Though you don't believe in the existence of God, it doesn't make you "stupid or worthy of God" , both sentiments that surprise me, to be an atheist, you must be certain of the non-existence of a higher 'being' and to be so sure then stupidity can't be leveled at you.

However a question (or three) that hopefully will provoke a response from all reading this thread, both Christian, atheist and any other religeus beliefs

What's the purpose of life? Why are we here on this planet? Are we really just an insignificant speck of cosmic dust, created by coincidental chance?
What worth is their in your life?
Why carry on? ...
life doesnt have a purpose its too pointless, were here n this planet coz god just randomized where to put us, and yes we are insignificant but we werent created by chance
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]{ingnik
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#164
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#164
(Original post by godthebuilder)
someone must have created earth
why? could it not have happened by chance? like everything else?
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]{ingnik
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#165
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#165
(Original post by {S}Scourge{S})
life doesnt have a purpose its too pointless, were here n this planet coz god just randomized where to put us, and yes we are insignificant but we werent created by chance
we werent created at all, we just happened.
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Everdawn
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#166
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#166
*nods* Evolution my friend.
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Howard
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#167
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(Original post by ]{ingnik)
we werent created at all, we just happened.
We are all but the playthings of the Gods.
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Everdawn
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#168
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ooh Thats like one of those inspiration quotes howard! It should be on a greeting card or something.
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Howard
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#169
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(Original post by Everdawn)
ooh Thats like one of those inspiration quotes howard! It should be on a greeting card or something.
My other favorite is

"As a fly is to a wanton boy are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport"

which I think I'm correct in saying comes from King Lear.
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Howard
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#170
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(Original post by Everdawn)
ooh Thats like one of those inspiration quotes howard! It should be on a greeting card or something.
My other favorite is

"As a fly is to a wanton boy are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport"
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Phil_C
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#171
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(Original post by {S}Scourge{S})
life doesnt have a purpose its too pointless, were here n this planet coz god just randomized where to put us, and yes we are insignificant but we werent created by chance
So if God placed us at random what does that say of this higher being, someone with no real thought process. Creates us but just dumps us here on earth by chance. Thank God he didn't dump us on Mars or the Sun, it would have been a short existance for sure!
Second;y if Life is pointless, then what are you doing? why stay here, why not check out and be done with it, rather than extend what is by your reckoning a piontless existance. The mere fact that we want to live, surley should indicate a desire to succeed and so suggest a meaning to life itself.
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Dickie
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#172
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#172
(Original post by Phil_C)
So if God placed us at random what does that say of this higher being, someone with no real thought process. Creates us but just dumps us here on earth by chance. Thank God he didn't dump us on Mars or the Sun, it would have been a short existance for sure!
Second;y if Life is pointless, then what are you doing? why stay here, why not check out and be done with it, rather than extend what is by your reckoning a piontless existance. The mere fact that we want to live, surley should indicate a desire to succeed and so suggest a meaning to life itself.
Life *is* pretty pointless. You are born, you effect a limited amout of people, and then die. In most cases, you are forgotten within a few generations.
For exceptional people who are remembered for something, eg Jesus (staying topical), they are just as insignificant, because their effect is limited to one place: Earth. In a few million years (or sooner if we blow ourselves up), their legacy will be destroyed by the expansion of the Sun during it's last phase of 'life'. It is most likely that, once that happens, the only reminder of our race will be the probes we have sent out into the universe (lets face it, any evacuation programme is unlikely to be successful, unless we find another planet like Earth to go to - but what about when that planet is destroyed?)

The hard and cold fact about life is that it is pointless - we leave no lasting legacy, we leave no reminder, we have no ultimate effect on anything. The point of life is that it is ultimately pointless, and we have to make the most of it.

edit: on a lighter note, putting us on mars would've saved the beagle crew a lot of disappointment
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Phil_C
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#173
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(Original post by Dickie)
Life *is* pretty pointless. You are born, you effect a limited amout of people, and then die. In most cases, you are forgotten within a few generations.
For exceptional people who are remembered for something, eg Jesus (staying topical), they are just as insignificant, because their effect is limited to one place: Earth. In a few million years (or sooner if we blow ourselves up), their legacy will be destroyed by the expansion of the Sun during it's last phase of 'life'. It is most likely that, once that happens, the only reminder of our race will be the probes we have sent out into the universe (lets face it, any evacuation programme is unlikely to be successful, unless we find another planet like Earth to go to - but what about when that planet is destroyed?)

The hard and cold fact about life is that it is pointless - we leave no lasting legacy, we leave no reminder, we have no ultimate effect on anything. The point of life is that it is ultimately pointless, and we have to make the most of it.

edit: on a lighter note, putting us on mars would've saved the beagle crew a lot of disappointment
If life of so pointless then why bother "to make the most if it" there is no reason to and no need to. Why bother to live within the confines of teh laws that we set up, they are as with the rest of life pointless.

the mere fact we feel the need to be something, to get on and do well is surely a sign that there is more too life than just being alive by chance. As CS Lewis points out, when there is nothing on earth that can truely fullfill the satisfaction that the self craves then the answer must lie outside and point to a higher existance.
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MuniE
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#174
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(Original post by Phil_C)
If life of so pointless then why bother "to make the most if it" there is no reason to and no need to. Why bother to live within the confines of teh laws that we set up, they are as with the rest of life pointless.

the mere fact we feel the need to be something, to get on and do well is surely a sign that there is more too life than just being alive by chance. As CS Lewis points out, when there is nothing on earth that can truely fullfill the satisfaction that the self craves then the answer must lie outside and point to a higher existance.
Well C.S Lewis is wrong. If nothing on earth will fulfill you then people invented a higher existence to provide them with that.

Life is pretty pointless but if you wanna have fun and not waste it you have to work within the system and try to make the most of it because you only get one shot at it. I would rather be doing anything on sunday then waste it in a Church because that is a day you will never get back.
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Phil_C
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#175
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(Original post by MuniE)
Well C.S Lewis is wrong. If nothing on earth will fulfill you then people invented a higher existence to provide them with that.

Life is pretty pointless but if you wanna have fun and not waste it you have to work within the system and try to make the most of it because you only get one shot at it. I would rather be doing anything on sunday then waste it in a Church because that is a day you will never get back.
Why work within the system, it is too constraining for a belief that life is entierely for self gratification, you have one shot only etc etc.
If there is no higher controlling power, why restarain yourself to rules imposed by others, you would be conforming to the idea that the is a higher power, in this case a group of elected peers. You feel the need to get someone to set you boundaries to control and guide your life.

And going back to the first point, only one shot at what? htere is no end goal, death is a hurdle that you can't beat, it's inevitabel so why try to avoid it/ make the most of your time, what is the point of doing so, surely it is better just to give up. If there is no point to life, there is no point to continue. better to check out now than waste resource.
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{S}Scourge{S}
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#176
Life has no meaning, were basicaly here to reproduce, get over it!
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superomega1
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#177
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(Original post by godthebuilder)
someone must have created earth
the big bang did.
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Phil_C
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#178
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#178
(Original post by {S}Scourge{S})
Life has no meaning, were basicaly here to reproduce, get over it!
What a contradiction!
"Life has no meaning" then in the same breath "were here to repoduce" a meaning if there ever was one!
But the question still remainsm what is the point? Why should we reproduce, why are YOU here. what do you say top yourswelf when you get down that stops you from checking out. Surely it has to be more than I'm here purely to reproduce. if that is the sole reason for existance then what a poor life we have! check out and be doen with it depress yourself no more.
However if there was a God then life does take on a meaning and a "lust for life" takes over, regardless of how heavy the current experience is.
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Schmelen
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#179
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I hope I do not offend anyone, but here is a nearly entirely historical approach to the whole jesus/ bible thing...

That Jesus existed is not a contested historical issue - he did exist, records show this (and he has been mentioned in other contemporary writings, and roman writers such as Tacitus have also mentioned him). His place in 'history' is clearly that of the same time as Herod and Pontious Pilate. Obviously the debate is whether or not he is god, or son of god or whatever. In terms of jesus being a fruad, he never (according to the gospels) claims to be 'god' and the titles he uses of himself were used to mean 'holy' men (such as 'son of man') and had been used of Old Testament prophets previously. The trinitarian approach of jesus being god was only made official doctrine at the council of calcedon, in (i think) about 460AD. In the light of this it is extremely hard to paint him a 'fraud' - afterall, do we even know whether what he said according to the gospel accounts was really what he said at all?

On paul, no, he did not write a gospel, he wrote his letters, of which the letters to the corinthians are the earliest section of the gospel to be written. He never met Jesus, and it is unlikely that the writer of the gospel of john ever met him (jesus), as this is the last section of the gospels to be written (around 100ad) and as such reflects the greek philosophical ideas of jesus, god etc (that jesus, knosis, existed from beginning etc... read john 1:1) as a pose to the more hebrew ideas of the synoptics. It is not known if the other writers of the gospels knew jesus. It is however inaccurate to say that paul does not reference the action in the gospels - he talks of the passion and ressurection in corinthians 15, which as i have said is the earliest of the writings in the new testament.

However, from a historical point of view, the 'bible' cannot be discussed in a 'its crap/its fab' sort of way - this type of discussion disregards what the bible is. Firstly, it is NOT one book, or one story. It is a collection of books which have different authors, were written in different times and crucially, for different purposes.

A lot of the old testament is historical, describing events that have been historically proven. However, what must not be forgotten is that these histories were written with the idea of an interventionist god in mind (not the omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc. god that so clearly shows the greek influence on the early christian church fathers). Therefore, the historical events described in the old testament can be a source of revelation for a believer. This does not mean that that a non-believer should disregard them as completely fictional, merely that both sets of people should be aware of the contextual issues as well.

Apart from the historical stuff, there is a great deal of poetry in the Bible. Whilst it is true that for a believer these works can be of great inspiration, from a non-believing perspective they are still fabulous works of art (the book of job is a good example, being well respected as a work of literature alone). That a non-believer should ignore these texts due to their theological implications is a real shame, a waste. For the same reason i would still reccommend the works of Dante, TS Elliot, Gerald Manley Hopkins... well, you get the idea.

There is also the moral aspect of the bible, which, whilst i am in no way saying that anyone without religion/faith is incapable of being a 'good' person, it is still a comfort to know exists. Fighting those who use religion as a weapon for entirely non-christian (in my opinion) ends is that bit easier when your arguement (against thier actions) can be substantiated with scripture.

Finally, i think it is important to point out that not all people with faith/ in a religion are fundamentalists. Not all christains disregard 'science' as wrong, as a test from god. Many see a certain harmony between science and religion. Both are, afterall, using similar methods, similar types of knowledge and are similarly effected by thier context and the humans that create/discover them. In my theology class of around twenty, there is one conservative creationist, and one atheist. The rest are 'christian' of varying denominations, each with separate opinions on how the bible should be interpreted. As you may have guessed, i like the historical approach. Anyway, Just as not all agnostics/atheists hold identical beliefs, I hope all christians will not be viewed as one body. As i dont doubt everyone is aware, there are as many interpretations of the different books in the bible as there are people.

Sorry about the length of that... hehe, once i get started...

Um, actually, one *real* last thing... it would be good to see a bit of mutual respect for everyone's own beliefs here - what right do any of us have to condemn anyone else for taking the leap of faith that leads to either atheism or theism? our motives are our own.
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FliP
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#180
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#180
Jesus was a LCD addict with many friends, That fooled a civilizaton that he was the son of "God".
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