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Daveo
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#1
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#1
My dad who is a self employed, law abiding tax payer, had to have an operation this week and has been given a sick not for the month, he has no sick pay as he is self employed, the government are supposed to provide income whilst he is off sick.
He has been given a grand total of £2 a day to live off by the governemt, compare this to the cost of keeping a murderer in prison or giving benefits to an asylum seeker.
Fair? I THINK NOT.
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happysunshine
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But the thing is people wont look after criminals for free and pay for their meals off their own backs. Blame the criminals not the government.
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Daveo
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#3
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(Original post by happysunshine)
But the thing is people wont look after criminals for free and pay for their meals off their own backs. Blame the criminals not the government.
Why not just lock them in a room?
Why should they have the right to a TV etc etc, they chose to forfeit their huma rights when they commited a crime.
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happysunshine
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(Original post by Daveo)
Why not just lock them in a room?
Why should they have the right to a TV etc etc, they chose to forfeit their huma rights when they commited a crime.
But you'd may as well kill them if you were to do that. Which is a good idea in itself.
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Daveo
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(Original post by happysunshine)
But you'd may as well kill them if you were to do that. Which is a good idea in itself.
That would do just fine with me, all murderers, rapists and such like should face a punishment more fitting to their crime where there is proof beyond doubt they are guilty.
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happysunshine
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(Original post by Daveo)
That would do just fine with me, all murderers, rapists and such like should face a punishment more fitting to their crime where there is proof beyond doubt they are guilty.
Yup and by doing so we'd keep the streets safer, the people safer and the future criminals would be less likely to commit crimes and therefore die because of doing so.
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Pencil
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(Original post by Daveo)
Why not just lock them in a room?
Why should they have the right to a TV etc etc, they chose to forfeit their huma rights when they commited a crime.
They should be given a cold, damp cell, bread and water daily and 2 hours of exercise every 24 hours. Also, every crime should have a fixed penalty - i.e. murder should be a fixed 30 years - no special treatment or good behaviour crap given.

If prison was tougher, it would put more people off the crimes.
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Daveo
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(Original post by happysunshine)
Yup and by doing so we'd keep the streets safer, the people safer and the future criminals would be less likely to commit crimes and therefore die because of doing so.
AND...lets not forget, it would provide more money for the law abiding, tax paying citizens when they really need it.
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Zarjazz
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#9
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(Original post by Pencil)
They should be given a cold, damp cell, bread and water daily and 2 hours of exercise every 24 hours. Also, every crime should have a fixed penalty - i.e. murder should be a fixed 30 years - no special treatment or good behaviour crap given.

If prison was tougher, it would put more people off the crimes.
Actually, I'm all for feeding them cream cakes and not giving them any exercise. Then they'll leave as lardy characters, much less likely to be dangerous. Don't want to train them up, they'll just be able to cause more damage when released!
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oldthrashbarg
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(Original post by Daveo)
they chose to forfeit their huma rights when they commited a crime.
You can't forfeit human rights. They are yours because you are human.
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Zarjazz
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#11
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(Original post by Daveo)
My dad who is a self employed, law abiding tax payer, had to have an operation this week and has been given a sick not for the month, he has no sick pay as he is self employed, the government are supposed to provide income whilst he is off sick.
He has been given a grand total of £2 a day to live off by the governemt, compare this to the cost of keeping a murderer in prison or giving benefits to an asylum seeker.
Fair? I THINK NOT.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, your dad's NI payments go towards an NHS which treated him with either no charge or a heavy subsidy. Why should it pay him when he can't work? If he couldn't work long term, the government would pay him disability benefits etc.

It's all relative too; if I earn £500 a day, then even a relatively generous £60 a day "sick pay" from the goverment is **** all use to me. Likewise if a self-employed person earns £15 a day and the government's chosen "sick pay" is £60, they'd never want to get better!

Your dad chose to be self-employed, so unfortunately he has to take the rough with the smooth. You can't say that benefits are always misplaced; be they to asylum seekers or whoever, most are generally fair and go to people who need them. Every system has its spongers but that's not what we're discussing here. Your solution for reducing the cost of keeping murderers in prison is different; personally I'd rather money went to the prison and justice systems rather than paying an extra self-employed-sick-person's benefit.

Hope he gets well soon.
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Daveo
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#12
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(Original post by oldthrashbarg)
You can't forfeit human rights. They are yours because you are human.
That statement whilst unfortunatly a fact seems debatable in some instances.
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PQ
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#13
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(Original post by Daveo)
where there is proof beyond doubt they are guilty.
And therein lies your problem - even criminals who've signed confessions have been found to be innocent - are you really so sure there is even a small minority of prisoners who have been proved beyond doubt of their crimes?
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....
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#14
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(Original post by oldthrashbarg)
You can't forfeit human rights. They are yours because you are human.
Human rights were invented by humans who says we can't take them away from those who do not deserve them.

I think there is a lot of hyperbole surrounding the prison system regarding how comfortable it is. I certainly don't think ex-convicts are rushing out to rape and pillage to get sent direclty to jail without passing go.
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wiwarin_mir
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#15
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(Original post by Daveo)
My dad who is a self employed, law abiding tax payer, had to have an operation this week and has been given a sick not for the month, he has no sick pay as he is self employed, the government are supposed to provide income whilst he is off sick.
He has been given a grand total of £2 a day to live off by the governemt, compare this to the cost of keeping a murderer in prison or giving benefits to an asylum seeker.
Fair? I THINK NOT.
Of course society is not fair, but the government tries to make it as fair as possible. If nothing was done for the immigrants and assylum seekers who come to this country, there would be a much higher homeless population and therefore crime rates would rise as they tried to survive and get by.
Fair enough, prison costs a lot, but what is the alternatives? Should we adopt a policy of a one sentance system, which would completely remove the need for prison, but would seem barbaric. It is impossible for society to be fair.
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happysunshine
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(Original post by oldthrashbarg)
You can't forfeit human rights. They are yours because you are human.
But they are no longer 'human' when they do things which are considered non-human to society.
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Daveo
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#17
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(Original post by Zarjazz)
Well, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, your dad's NI payments go towards an NHS which treated him with either no charge or a heavy subsidy. Why should it pay him when he can't work? If he couldn't work long term, the government would pay him disability benefits etc.

It's all relative too; if I earn £500 a day, then even a relatively generous £60 a day "sick pay" from the goverment is **** all use to me. Likewise if a self-employed person earns £15 a day and the government's chosen "sick pay" is £60, they'd never want to get better!

Your dad chose to be self-employed, so unfortunately he has to take the rough with the smooth. You can't say that benefits are always misplaced; be they to asylum seekers or whoever, most are generally fair and go to people who need them. Every system has its spongers but that's not what we're discussing here. Your solution for reducing the cost of keeping murderers in prison is different; personally I'd rather money went to the prison and justice systems rather than paying an extra self-employed-sick-person's benefit.

Hope he gets well soon.
LOL! - I agree to some extent. However it is impossible to live on £2 a day no matter who you are, fortunately My dad is in the situation where he needs not worry too much but for some people it would probably be very very very tough.
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Daveo
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Pencil Queen)
And therein lies your problem - even criminals who've signed confessions have been found to be innocent - are you really so sure there is even a small minority of prisoners who have been proved beyond doubt of their crimes?
Yeah I copmpletely understand that problem and as yet unfortunately have no answer.
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Blamps
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Daveo)
My dad who is a self employed, law abiding tax payer, had to have an operation this week and has been given a sick not for the month, he has no sick pay as he is self employed, the government are supposed to provide income whilst he is off sick.
He has been given a grand total of £2 a day to live off by the governemt, compare this to the cost of keeping a murderer in prison or giving benefits to an asylum seeker.
Fair? I THINK NOT.
This may be aside the point, but the govt. clearly should favour supporting private enterprise
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pedy1986
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#20
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(Original post by oldthrashbarg)
You can't forfeit human rights. They are yours because you are human.
I would beg to differ - to gain rights you must perform your duties to the state.
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