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Lady windermere's fan

just starting a general discussion on this if anyone's doing this text as there is so little info about it anywhere might be helpful for people to say what they know, seeing as I know very little and am making up all my arguements!

Reply 1

PinkPigeon

Ahh Oscar Wilde, I love him (PLUS you have my name...sorry, I get a bit excited over silly things like that)

I haven't read the text for a while I'm not actually studying it but if anyone else starts a discussion it should remind me a little.

Reply 2

macintosh

i'm studying it too. wouldn't really know what debate to start either :biggrin:

but would happily join in with one!

Reply 3

Roisin

Hey Roisin 2! Do people pronounce your name wrong all the time too? My favourites are Roseanne and Raisin!!

Anyho, I'll attempt to start a debate with macintosh:tried to revise questions on how irrelevant the play is to a modern audience and a question on 'absurd values' all i could come up with was sexual double standards in women and purtinanism as stupid values as everyone else seems to be anti values and decadent? Really stumped by all the questions because all the characters are so cyncial and insincere and paradoxical its impossible to tell what they do value! arrgh

:banghead:

Reply 4

macintosh

hmm i'm not really sure what you're asking? haha but i'll try and answer anyway.

i disagree that all the characters are cynical and insincere. for example, lady windermere. particularly at the beginning of the novel she is completely trusting to the point of being quite naive, as in her trust of her husband and it takes written proof in lord windermere's bank book to make her question whether what she's being told is true.

mrs erlynne i also wouldn't describe as cynical. i think she's more world weary and aware of the hyopcrisy of society and the attitudes of the upper class that cynical and she certainly seems sincere in her feeling for her daughter to the extent that she is willing to risk being 'lost' again to protect her and her relationship with her husband.

i wouldn't say it's completely irrelevant to a modern audience, either. i definitely think the sexual double standards still exist though maybe not to the extremes that they did during this period (at least not in our culture.)

i think that what the other characters (aside from the main ones, those being lady & lord windermere and mrs erlynne) value are their status in society, money and security. examples? well there's the fact that marriage is seen as a transaction (look at agatha and mr. hopper and the duchess trying to force them together.) also status, that can relate to marriage as well but is more evident in the fact that so many couples are adulterous (duchess's husband, lady plymdale and dumby, and it's hinted at augustus too just to name a few) yet still make a point of upholding their married lives to the public.

was that all completely irrelevant? :smile:

Reply 5

Roisin

No it makes complete sense and I actually completely agree that the play is relevant to the modern audience, my problem is providing examples of its irrelevance! I can't find examples of when characters apart from Lady W espouse a particular philosophy- for example lord Darlington seems to drift from being a cynic to a sentimentalist so its hard to say what values he's representative of and Cecil Graham speaks entirely in paradoxical epigrams so you can't say really what he values..... plus you know how the questions always ask for a carefully selected extract? well, there seems to be bits and bobs dotted around exemplifying absurd values etc but not particular scenes... actually the more i write the more i realise maybe im just looking for a 'right answer' and there actually isn't one! I think what threw me was the question specifies the start of act four as a starting point up to where Lady W leaves and its like.....nothing is said in that scene! Apart from Lady W renouncing her previous views which is actually evidence to contradict the question! Ill stop now...

Reply 6

macintosh

well you could use darlington as a representative of the upper class. the fact that he drifts from view to view shows how frivolous he is which is basically what the lives of the upper classes were like. cecil graham is another example of this because he's such a trivial character. in fact, all the characters are trivil apart from lord & lady w and mrs erlynne which suggests that wilde was trying to make a satirical point about the lives of the upper classes.

i think the whole of the ball scene could be used for that question, because it shows that the charcters don't really value anything apart from status and money. you don't have to agree with the question's statement, instead you could completely disprove it (which it sounds like that's what you think!) as long as you do consider the other side :smile:

edit: just to say i looked at your profile and you're in broxbourne! i'm in hoddesdon x

Reply 7

Rainy

Ermm...

Think of the Victorian Era U/C context:

The class system of today has very much dissipated. How many Lords and Ladies do you know?

Portrayal of marriage: very much a transaction (Lady Agatha) - do people marry for money nowadays?

Affairs: although Lady Windermere's thrown by her husband's apparent adultery, Lady Plymdale encourages her husband to sleep around.

Maybe look at language and interaction? People are much less reserved today in both language and behaviour. It's not as much "balls and dressmaking" as "going out on the lash".

Wilde's portrayal of such an insular, rich society is hardly relevant to Victorian society at large, let alone the modern day. It's hardly Dickens.

Perhaps look at why the text was written? It's a play of manners, right? That's hardly a typical convention of literature today. I can't really recall reading a modern text revolving around socety and manners? Maybe the "Well Made Play" covention applies?

Sexual double standards is another one you've highlighted; female emancipation wasn't until 1928-odd? Perhaps include that Wilde was a progressive - was a homosexual, and advocated sexual equality (was editor of a womens' magazine). It's a "Society Drama" after all; perhaps he was using those Victorian conventions of literature to take the piss out of the pretty stiff, hypocritical Upper Class that he experienced?

I don't know. I haven't picked up the text in months, so I don't know how much of that makes sense. I'll come back with some more when I get my head straight.

Reply 8

FarEastGerman

Just to take up the other side of the argument (although I don't actually find Wilde that brilliant or relevant)

Lady Windermere's Fan is indeed a social comedy but although literature about manners doesn't seem so popular at the moment society is an universal theme, really. (And yes, society comedies ARE still popular- look at the success of Bridget Jones, which is just a 'remake' of Jane Austen). So even if yes, the aristocracy are even less representative today than it was then, that still doens't mean that it's irrelevant to study that society. (Also, i dont think Dickens is necessarily more relevant- how many of us can really relate to the lower working class of the Victorian era which is not at all alike to the modern 'working class'?...)

For one, you'll find that many of the sub-themes revolving around society are still relevant. Eg gossip; noone will claim that gossip is no longer relevant in our day. And gossip is certainly a very important aspect of the society which Wilde presents; the men and women do nothing but "slander" about Mrs. Erlynne, Lord Windermere behind their backs whilst appearing polite to them in person. That two-faced nature of social interactions also is as relevant today as it was then.

Second important parallel: money as a value in society. Rainy doubted that people still marry for money nowadays-i'd counterargue that in our time you might see this even more than in Wilde's day. Hence the stereotype of young attractive women marrying near-death millionaires...And even if not to that extreme, certainly financial considerations to carry some weight in marriage. It may seem cynical, but I think it's true. So Wilde is not so far off after all. Furthermore, Money as a value (replacing things like class/lineage) is even more present today and Wilde's work is relevant in showing us the then emerging capitalist society which has just about fully developed in our time.

I could go on but really French Literature is more important to me right now...got my exam in a few hours...

Actually, this thread is turning out to be really useful in shaping and argueing viewpoints on Wilde. Thank you for starting it, Roisin!

Reply 9

Roisin

My pleasure fareastgerman, haven't checked this is ages been to busy with other english, philosophy, history! aargh and now the exams on monday so not much more time....anyhoo another thing that could be discussed is if the society is 'decadent' and 'content with its own lack of hard and fast rules.' clearly Lady W isn't content, but you could also perhaps argue that female characters are at least concerned that the pretence of morality should be kept up..thats why they can't stand Mrs Erlynne.. they're happy for men to live without boundaries and flaunt it like Lord Darlington, but 'with women its different. We're good' the Duchess of B says something alone those lines!

Also Macintosh, what school do you go to?? Can't be mine Broxbourne or you'd know who I was....Sherides? Nemesis of Broxbourne!

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