What feminism is (a handy guide!)

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Tyrion_Lannister
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Due to an influx of antifem threads recently, I decided to make this to clarify a few things, as people seem to be massively getting the wrong end of the stick. There seems to be a lot of "feminism is female superiority" "those damn feminazis!" (gender equality and mass genocide, so alike) and "*****es moaning" being bandied about, and as these people seem to lack an ability to use google, I thought I'd compile this handy resource for them.

Firstly, a quick definition of feminism
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Source:
http://www.google.co.uk/#gs_rn=16&gs...w=1092&bih=533
Notice nothing is mentioned about superiority of either men or women. Feminism is about gender equality.

Now, a quick definition of discrimination, as this seemed to cause quite a lot of problems
Discrimination is prejudice and power together. Basically, anyone can be prejudiced, but only those in power can discriminate. So when men moan saying "oh but men are discriminated against, this one woman laughed when she kicked my brother's mates girlfriends son in the balls!" are talking about prejudice. Women as a collective do not have power. So yes, no one is saying men cannot face prejudice. But discrimination is not the same. That's the sociological definition of the word
http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/dis..._8_ud_race.asp

Now, on to the next point. Did you know that patriarchy is damaging to men too? And also that most of the problems you bring up are actually caused by patriarchy
  • Women getting custody

Because of gender roles, it is assumed women are the best carers for their kids, and that women are gentle and motherly and want full custody. It is assumed men will work and make a load of money and aren't best for looking after kids.
  • Men not being able to show their emotions/getting laughed at for it

As if patriarchy would let a big strong man behave like a feeble woman! Again gender roles cause this problem
  • No one taking is seriously if a man is sexually assaulted by a woman

Men are sex mad horny beasts who think about sex all the time, like they would ever turn it down! They love it really! They're all manly and aggressive, any hole is a goal! And anyone who got taken advantage of by a feeble woman must be so immasculine, as masculine men love sex and are big and strong. Hurrrrrrrr.
  • On TV people laughed at a man getting his **** cut off you wouldn't ever have TV shows that say that about women

Those women who did that do not define feminism and there are plenty of shows which do degrade women. Both are wrong
  • Women have advantages in society because men find them attractive

This is a problem! Women don't want advantages because some men (and women, so as not to be heteronormative) find them attractive. Women want to be treated equally for their merits.
  • Objectification is fine, when having sex everyone objectifies eachother

Yes, you're absolutely right. What isn't fine is when a person is objectified to the point of being reduced to a pretty shiny object. When a person is expected to be just a sex object. It's fine to think of someone as a sex object as well as a hilarious person who's fun to be with. That's cool, go ahead! It's not fine to think of that person as a sex object and nothing else.

Lastly, another thing that keeps coming up is everyone assuming feminism means radical feminism. It doesn't. Some feminists are radical. Some feminists are liberal feminists. Others are difference feminists. Others are post. modern feminists. Others are a mixture. There's so many different groups, I'm not going to go into all of them as this is already massive, but feminism isn't one collective, wwe don't all think the same, we don't all have the same ideas. Everyone wants gender equality, we just have different ideas about what we should do to get it. So by all means debate that. But to debate whether feminism, something that strives for equality for all, should exist or not, shows you're either misogynistic or misguided.
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thesabbath
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None of that stuff bothers me, apart from custody/divorce rights when we're supposedly equal before the law, but feminists keep telling me it should as if it justifies all the other social engineering they like to partake in.
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Xiomara
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This thread is very necessary. Thank you for making it.

Unfortunately, I suspect the most vocal misogynists on here won't listen.
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Arnob204
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(Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
Now, a quick definition of discrimination, as this seemed to cause quite a lot of problems
Discrimination is prejudice and power together. Basically, anyone can be prejudiced, but only those in power can discriminate. So when men moan saying "oh but men are discriminated against, this one woman laughed when she kicked my brother's mates girlfriends son in the balls!" are talking about prejudice. Women as a collective do not have power. So yes, no one is saying men cannot face prejudice. But discrimination is not the same. That's the sociological definition of the word
http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/dis..._8_ud_race.asp

I don't care what sociologists say. You can't change the definition of a word to fit your narrative.

Now, on to the next point. Did you know that patriarchy is damaging to men too? And also that most of the problems you bring up are actually caused by patriarchy Utter nonsense. That's like saying being the king harms the royal family.

  • Women getting custody

Because of gender roles, it is assumed women are the best carers for their kids, and that women are gentle and motherly and want full custody. But that's true. However the ideal family unit has both genders.

  • Men not being able to show their emotions/getting laughed at for it The way it should be. Stoicism and a stiff upper-lip are virtuous traits.

Again gender roles cause this problem
  • No one taking is seriously if a man is sexually assaulted by a woman I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of the MRA people on this. A sexual assault on a man by a woman (unless a weapon is used) is in no way comparable to sexual assault on a woman by a man.


  • Women have advantages in society because men find them attractive

This is a problem! Women don't want advantages because some men (and women, so as not to be heteronormative) find them attractive. Women want to be treated equally for their merits. What makes you think you speak for all women? I bet lots of females love having their meals paid for by men.

But to debate whether feminism, something that strives for equality for all, should exist or not, shows you're either misogynistic or misguided. So you can't criticise feminism unless you hate women? Get lost.
..
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Chocolate Mousse
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To be honest, I think that the attitude of so many TSR members shown on these crazy antifem threads just exemplifies the problem.

If you don't think we need feminism, look at The Everyday Sexism Project.
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Xiomara
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(Original post by Chocolate Mousse)
To be honest, I think that the attitude of so many TSR members shown on these crazy antifem threads just exemplifies the problem.

If you don;t think we need feminism, look at The Everyday Sexism Project.
Ironic you should link that. I remember a thread a couple of weeks ago that picked out one of the examples and basically said "wow overreaction much hurt durr they just want something to be offended about".

It's really hard for some people (in a position of privilege) to understand any other point of view.
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CJKay
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Okay, so you've given a description of what it is.
Now for a description of what it acts like...
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The Angry Stoic
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I don't think many people have a problem with the core beliefs of feminism such equality, freedom from oppression and discrimination etc. the problem is the term feminism gets associated with 'feminazis' people if that's what you want to call them. They can be hypocritical, over sensitive and fricking annoying. Feminism as a whole suffers through association unfortunately. That's why I don't label myself a feminist as I don't want to be associated with these people.

Though feminism is so, so still needed in the world. I'll post this picture again.

Name:  image.jpg
Views: 806
Size:  106.5 KB

Don't let religion or culture act as a mask for sexism and oppressive patriarchy or for the discrimination of any group.

Go feminists, go! :horse:
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Messalina
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(Original post by Chocolate Mousse)
To be honest, I think that the attitude of so many TSR members shown on these crazy antifem threads just exemplifies the problem.

If you don't think we need feminism, look at The Everyday Sexism Project.
Watch out - the anti-fems are convinced that The Everyday Sexism Project is a load of women moaning about things which "aren't sexist" and "OMGGG its so sexist cos men can't post!" even though... men can post, there are posts on there by men :confused:

The whole anti-feminist movement is entirely bizarre. It bounces between "oh women have it easy they should shut up and help third world countries" and "but what about the men? What about the poor, poor, discriminated-against men?"

Deary me, now let the backlash begin. The anti-fems won't like that you've started your own thread Tyrion, that's just female supremacy dontcha know :rolleyes:
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ArtGoblin
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(Original post by thesabbath)
None of that stuff bothers me, apart from custody/divorce rights when we're supposedly equal before the law, but feminists keep telling me it should as if it justifies all the other social engineering they like to partake in.
I don't quite understand what you are saying feminists tell you; could you rephrase it? The OP isn't saying that women getting residency in the majority of cases is fair, she is just explaining the reason why it occurs. Feminists want to break down gender roles so more equal residency orders is something we would like to see happen. I would also add that in addition to judges' tendencies to see mothers are more appropriate carers, women are often the primary caregivers so it seems better for the child to live with the parent who has been around them for the most time. While I don't think gender is inconsequential to the decision about where children should live, it is mainly to do with who has actually looked after the child which in the majority of cases is the mother.
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OedipusTheKing
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(Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
Due to an influx of antifem threads recently, I decided to make this to clarify a few things, as people seem to be massively getting the wrong end of the stick. There seems to be a lot of "feminism is female superiority" "those damn feminazis!" (gender equality and mass genocide, so alike) and "*****es moaning" being bandied about, and as these people seem to lack an ability to use google, I thought I'd compile this handy resource for them.

Firstly, a quick definition of feminism
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. 1)

Source:
http://www.google.co.uk/#gs_rn=16&gs...w=1092&bih=533
Notice nothing is mentioned about superiority of either men or women. Feminism is about gender equality.

Now, a quick definition of discrimination, as this seemed to cause quite a lot of problems
Discrimination is prejudice and power together. Basically, anyone can be prejudiced, but only those in power can discriminate. So when men moan saying "oh but men are discriminated against, this one woman laughed when she kicked my brother's mates girlfriends son in the balls!" are talking about prejudice. Women as a collective do not have power. So yes, no one is saying men cannot face prejudice. But discrimination is not the same. That's the sociological definition of the word
http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/dis..._8_ud_race.asp

Now, on to the next point. Did you know that patriarchy is damaging to men too? And also that most of the problems you bring up are actually caused by patriarchy
  • Women getting custody

Because of gender roles, it is assumed women are the best carers for their kids, and that women are gentle and motherly and want full custody. It is assumed men will work and make a load of money and aren't best for looking after kids.
  • Men not being able to show their emotions/getting laughed at for it

As if patriarchy would let a big strong man behave like a feeble woman! Again gender roles cause this problem
  • No one taking is seriously if a man is sexually assaulted by a woman

Men are sex mad horny beasts who think about sex all the time, like they would ever turn it down! They love it really! They're all manly and aggressive, any hole is a goal! And anyone who got taken advantage of by a feeble woman must be so immasculine, as masculine men love sex and are big and strong. Hurrrrrrrr. 2)
  • On TV people laughed at a man getting his **** cut off you wouldn't ever have TV shows that say that about women

Those women who did that do not define feminism and there are plenty of shows which do degrade women. 3) Both are wrong
  • Women have advantages in society because men find them attractive

This is a problem! Women don't want advantages because some men (and women, so as not to be heteronormative) find them attractive. Women want to be treated equally for their merits. 4)
  • Objectification is fine, when having sex everyone objectifies eachother

Yes, you're absolutely right. What isn't fine is when a person is objectified to the point of being reduced to a pretty shiny object. When a person is expected to be just a sex object. It's fine to think of someone as a sex object as well as a hilarious person who's fun to be with. That's cool, go ahead! It's not fine to think of that person as a sex object and nothing else.

Lastly, another thing that keeps coming up is everyone assuming feminism means radical feminism. It doesn't. Some feminists are radical. Some feminists are liberal feminists. Others are difference feminists. Others are post. modern feminists. Others are a mixture. There's so many different groups, I'm not going to go into all of them as this is already massive, but feminism isn't one collective, wwe don't all think the same, we don't all have the same ideas. Everyone wants gender equality, we just have different ideas about what we should do to get it. So by all means debate that. But to debate whether feminism, something that strives for equality for all, should exist or not, shows you're either misogynistic or misguided.
1) Definitions change all the time. Conservatism as originally defined by Burke is completely different to the policy and morality expressed by the modern conservative party – yet both would claim to belong to a 'conservative ideology'. You seem to be unaware of the concept of etymology.

2) This is honestly just insulting and is akin to the way that society won't pick their heads out of the sand to address male-abuse in relationships.

3) But they claim to be feminists, and the movement should address it.

4) The point is ridiculous. In this day and age when decent work is hard to come by, do you really think a woman would reject a potential job because she thought the employer was hiring her for her looks? Be realistic.

Ultimately I don't think anyone on this forum rejects female rights. What they do object to is the systematic hijacking of the feminist movement, which was indeed originally used to balance inequalities in the UK, to propagate an unjust lobbying movement which is undemocratic. The movement currently achieves this through an 'all' or 'nothing' terminology which it has become well grounded with, in the sense that if you are not a feminist, you do not believe in female rights. The terms are mutually exclusive.
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Huskaris
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Can't tell if this is a genuine pro feminism thread.

Or a troll.
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Patriot Rich
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(Original post by Chocolate Mousse)
To be honest, I think that the attitude of so many TSR members shown on these crazy antifem threads just exemplifies the problem.

If you don't think we need feminism, look at The Everyday Sexism Project.
The problem is with the Everyday Sexism Project is that its a list of completely unverified stories. I don't doubt that most of them happened, but the truth is that people do lie, or at least embellish, things that happened to them. Have you ever seen the documentary about the 9/11 faker for example? On the internet you can hide behind anonymity. A lot of stories you see on websites like this and tumblr seem too good to be true.

There's also the context these stories are taken in. I don't know how many instances are on that website but compared to the population as a whole its probably very small. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist, not at all, I just think that website is a bad way to prove it since its unverified.
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thesabbath
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(Original post by ArtGoblin)
I don't quite understand what you are saying feminists tell you; could you rephrase it? The OP isn't saying that women getting residency in the majority of cases is fair, she is just explaining the reason why it occurs. Feminists want to break down gender roles so more equal residency orders is something we would like to see happen. I would also add that in addition to judges' tendencies to see mothers are more appropriate carers, women are often the primary caregivers so it seems better for the child to live with the parent who has been around them for the most time. While I don't think gender is inconsequential to the decision about where children should live, it is mainly to do with who has actually looked after the child which in the majority of cases is the mother.
I was referring to the list of reasons that "the patriarchy" is negative for men so we should rally behind the feminist cause. They don't draw me in, other than the one I singled out (for its inconsistency).

I approve of gender roles because I don't believe attempting to reprogram humans is good for society, however, given where we are, which is that women and men are supposedly equal before the law, it is unacceptable to take prejudiced views when awarding custody of children or apportioning blame/alimony in cases of divorce. The obvious solution as a man is not to get married, but that's probably what feminists want anyway. Very unfortunate for the women who are not, however.
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Xiomara
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(Original post by OedipusTheKing)

3) But they claim to be feminists, and the movement should address it.
...eh? Anyone can co-opt a name, doesn't mean they are the responsibility of the group they claim to represent. In the same way that mainstream Muslims aren't anything to do with jihadists that commit terrorist acts, the occasional nutjob saying they're feminist isn't really related to the movement as a whole.
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Arnob204
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(Original post by Chocolate Mousse)
To be honest, I think that the attitude of so many TSR members shown on these crazy antifem threads just exemplifies the problem.

If you don't think we need feminism, look at The Everyday Sexism Project.
That website is just laughable. "Someone was slightly insulting to me or made a mildly sexist remark! Call the hurt feelings police!"
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Messalina
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(Original post by Huskaris)
Can't tell if this is a genuine pro feminism thread.

Or a troll.
It's pro-feminism - or at least, the OP is definitely a feminist. The sarcasm is probably just because of all the crap we've been getting on here from the anti-fems, it's hard to be civil when you're constantly getting called a nazi.
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OedipusTheKing
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(Original post by Xiomara)
...eh? Anyone can co-opt a name, doesn't mean they are the responsibility of the group they claim to represent. In the same way that mainstream Muslims aren't anything to do with jihadists that commit terrorist acts, the occasional nutjob saying they're feminist isn't really related to the movement as a whole.
:curious:If I was a a member of the conservative party and started to profess my love for communism, don't you think I'd be kicked out since my views are basically incompatible with the organisation? A parallel methinks.
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Chocolate Mousse
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(Original post by Messalina)
Watch out - the anti-fems are convinced that The Everyday Sexism Project is a load of women moaning about things which "aren't sexist" and "OMGGG its so sexist cos men can't post!" even though... men can post, there are posts on there by men :confused:

The whole anti-feminist movement is entirely bizarre. It bounces between "oh women have it easy they should shut up and help third world countries" and "but what about the men? What about the poor, poor, discriminated-against men?"

Deary me, now let the backlash begin. The anti-fems won't like that you've started your own thread Tyrion, that's just female supremacy dontcha know :rolleyes:
This is what I mean about the attitude of guys on here exemplifying the problem - they don't acknowledge that there's a problem at all, and if that's the case, how can anything change?
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Tyrion_Lannister
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(Original post by Arnob204)
..
I don't care what sociologists say. You can't change the definition of a word to fit your narrative.
And yet, that's what you're doing :eek2:

Utter nonsense. That's like saying being the king harms the royal family.
Address the points. Patriarchy only benefits a very small minority of rich white men

But that's true. However the ideal family unit has both genders.
Evidence?

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of the MRA people on this. A sexual assault on a man by a woman (unless a weapon is used) is in no way comparable to sexual assault on a woman by a man.
What does that mean?

The way it should be. Stoicism and a stiff upper-lip are virtuous traits.
In your opinion. Stiff upper lip and stocisim contribute to social and mental health problems.

What makes you think you speak for all women? I bet lots of females love having their meals paid for by men.
That's not the same as being objectified is it. Men and women should buy each other things.

So you can't criticise feminism unless you hate women? Get lost.
Well as feminism is about gender equality, not really, no.
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