Rising level of student complaints

Interesting article on the rise of student complaints today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22875719
I concur with the suggestion that students are beginning to think 'like consumers' as a result of the tuition fee rise. However I also suspect that the quality of education and student provision is being deeply damaged by the very extreme cuts in funding to Universities. Universities are being forced to cut corners, and its hardly surprising that this results in disgruntled students whose expectations aren't adequately met.

What are your thoughts?

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 1

rosee92

I paid the old £3.5k fees, but I can totally understand people who are paying £9k complaining after being told that their department won't cover the costs of something, or won't have more than 2 copies of a textbook for a course of 50 people in the library because "they can't afford it".

In my time at uni though, a lot of people who complained were the ones causing problems for themsevles. A friend of mine was just a slacker really, but she'd complain that the lecturers didn't give her enough help. I'd send her articles or recommend books and she'd still be like "I don't understand why lecturer a, b or c, won't explain this.", and I'm thinking, yeah they did but you weren't there or weren't listening or won't do extra reading!!

If you have a justified reason to complain I'd have no problems with it, as long as you don't look at the uni as a degree factory.

Reply 2

SillyEddy

I was under the impression that the only difference was how much of the money they shifted to the students. The actual cost of the course is still the same, right? It's just the government subsidy which has changed..?

If so, then there's less of a reason to complain. The university wouldn't receive a further £6k per student if that were the case, and so the old budget would still be there.

Fortunately, my university has started to give free core textbooks to students. Some even receive Macbooks (for graphics courses) for the duration of their course. But, as far as I'm concerned, the money isn't an issue. The repayment rates aren't bad and there is a greater margin for your income before you pay it back. I'm happy enough with that.

Reply 3

Craghyrax

Original post by SillyEddy

That is true of the change to tuition fees, but there are other big cuts that are affecting Universities. Research funding has reduced substantially, and this is a big part of department and institution budgets which affects hiring of staff, money towards facilities and so forth.

As to the tuition fees, the increase means that a reduction in students is being felt in some places, meaning a loss in revenue. The recent changes of lifting the cap for AAB/ABB students means that Universities are more uncertain of how many students they'll have after Results, which affects their ability to plan and provide appropriately. The lift in the cap also means that popular Universities are tempted to just take on more students than they really have the facilities to support (this is connected to the tuition fee rise, as when funding came from the state instead of the student, this temptation wasn't there in the same way).

All of these changes have forced Universities to try and take on more international students in order to make ends meet. Taking on more international students affects the educational environment when these students don't have the necessary language proficiency for an english degree. Universities are also taking on more international students than they have space for as they are with home students.

Finally, the state changes to student visas are making it even harder for the Universities that rely heavily on international course fees.

So its a bigger mess than that, unfortunately.

Reply 4

threeportdrift

Careers Forum Helper

Original post by Craghyrax

Craggy, that's a very confused and largely incorrect version of what is going on. Whilst everything you say is theoretically possible, several don't happen and several only happen to certain Universities at certain points in the 'pecking order'. If you want to know the facts, I suggest you find the Director of Planning at your Uni who will deal with these facts and figures, or speak to the President of the SU who will probably have seen the University plans discussed at the Governing Body meetings, which the SU President usually sits on.

Whilst research money is becoming more competitive to achieve, that is 'additional' money, QR income is as it has been pending the 15/16 REF outcome. This might see a radical difference in income, either relatively - if the specific Uni has mis-judged its submission, or absolutely, if the government radically reduces the pot of money available to share. So it's a future uncertainty, but as the REF panels meet etc the signs are likely to be there to plan for.

Actually, apart from the reduction in the number of A* and A grades last year, applicant behaviour was almost identical to previous years. Universities have been doing this for years, and whilst there are things they have to take a guess on, that is more the very fine details like the number of students that transfer in and transfer out in a year. On something like a 4000 student intake in September, you can forecast a likely overshoot and undershoot weekly from about March which still gives you time to remodel and reconfigure. So you'd expect to be able to get to within about 40 of 4000 (always undershoot rather than overshoot for a variety of reasons) and usually end closer than that by the time you have to report registration numbers to HEFCE.

Last year a number of RG universities got caught about by the reduction in the number of A*/A grades. This reduced the size of the ABB population, or at least the top end of it. Universities that didn't leave themselves a large 'tail' to recruit from (ie have offer holders with near misses) found they couldn't fill up easily. Universities whose 'near misses' were below ABB couldn't fill up because they would have broken their SNC and been fined. But in fact, as far as Universities shared their reasoning, most took a hit on reduced numbers in order not to take a perceived greater hit on league table standings, being as so many tables measure average UCAS score on entry. Taking 100 ABB students on to several courses that usually take AAB can seriously ding your League Table scores, and several Unis decided to take the financial hit rather than the prestige hit.

No university decides on a whim to take extra students. My university is currently planning on about a 1% growth next year and since September we have been planning accommodation, IT resources, study space, library space and access, which courses will grow, faculty teaching staff, PG TAs, admin support staff, sports facilities, lecture theatre space, timetabling, personal tutors, language support, welfare services etc etc, the list goes on.

Universities aren't 'forced' to take on international students or home students. They do market research to see where the potential for growth is. You can tell from various sources where demand is growing (not least from your own applicant pool) and you match that to where you have the capacity for growth. It's a fact of world economics that several countries in the world are growing economically and need graduates at a faster rate than their own tertiary education can support, and the UK and US provide some of that additional capacity. The demand is likely to grow for at least the next 10-15 years, as a robust tertiary education sector cannot be grown overnight. Watch out for even more internationalisation - in part overseas students coming to study in the UK, but in parallel, more opportunities for study abroad as partnerships with overseas universities and industries develop rapidly.

On the original point, the interesting thing they didn't pick up on is whether there is any particular section of the student population that creates more than its proportionate number of complaints. There certainly is, hence the rise in compulsory pre-sessional English courses that also teach about the academic culture, the nature and style of UK university lectures, seminars, essays etc

People sometimes seem to forget that the academics aren't the only bright people working in Universities :wink:

Reply 5

Craghyrax

Original post by threeportdrift

Spoiler

Thanks for that detailed explanation (apart from the slightly condescending tone). I definitely don't think I know a huge amount about the situation. However if my understanding is confused, that's just because its the best I've been able to piece together from sporadic reading of news articles, most of which cover particular changes rather than addressing all of them comprehensively and critiquing the overall implications. I'm afraid I don't have time to read any data from my University's planning director.

I did not literally mean that Universities are forced. It is just as good, for my argument, to say that they are strongly incentivised to take on more students.

The information you provided above didn't seem to necessarily disagree with all of the conclusions I drew. You covered mostly the planning angle. Whereas the thrust of the point I was trying to communicate was mainly that the student complaints mentioned in the BBC article could be a reflection of a decline in the quality of academic provision at UK Universities (speaking holistically) rather than a reflection of students starting to think like 'consumers'. (I don't dispute that that may be happening, I just wish to point out that this is another factor that could have been considered).

From what you've said, I get the impression that Universities can and do plan without that much difficulty in spite of changes. But I didn't see anything in your post which counteracted my assumption that Universities have suffered from funding cuts, and that they are therefore more likely to make this up by taking on more students in the future. Even if a loss of funds wasn't incentivising Universities to take on more students, that loss of funding alone is enough to reasonably assume that Universities might struggle to maintain the same level of educational provision in terms of facilities and teaching support. And while these effects are certainly variable according to institutional specifics, we do know that some institutions are being hit very hard by the changes in immigration and visa regulation :dontknow:

I think the point I was trying to make hangs on whether Universities are shorter in funds than they were. I was under the firm impression that this was the case, but I'd be happy to be informed if this is not the case.

At my own institution it is extremely clear that the University has taken on a lot more students than it has the capacity to support, particularly in terms of space (not so much in terms of teaching support). It has also very steeply expanded its international student intake. I am very supportive of international students being educated here, but I am very concerned by UK institutions using these students for their own ends. Many of the international students at my institution are admitted without sufficient english proficiency to handle the courses they enrol on, and are struggling substantially as a result. Not only is this very unfair on the international students (the University should insist on higher standards of English, or ensure that they have a year improving it before starting their courses for their own good), but that also affects the nature of education for all first language students, as it has a big impact on class dynamics.
So maybe the poor provision at my institution is just down to unscrupulous management that is entirely unrelated to funding cuts and completely down to the existing administration's chosen business strategy. It just seemed to me that funding pressure might be fairly influential in this.

As to non-academic University staff being smart, I sincerely hope you were targeting that last sentence at society at large rather than me, because I certainly have never said or even thought that people working in University administration are any different than academics in terms of competence, intelligence or any other virtue :lolwut:

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 6

threeportdrift

Careers Forum Helper

Original post by Craghyrax

...........

Nothing directly targeted at you with any malign intent, though I must admit it is very frustrating to see someone (who is fairly influential and certainly offers an opinion on these things on TSR) say they don't have the time to get informed.

On the English language issue, anyone who wants to know more should speak to their Uni staff who deal with this. Fraud is a major issue that is difficult to solve within realistic cost limits. Doing pre-sessional courses in the UK is the most reliable solution, but one that then significantly increases resources from the Uni, and costs to students.

The rise in complaints from students is not a rise across the board, there are specific cultural patterns. It is not Home students that are responsible for the majority of the increase, it is students coming from different educational cultures, investing significant funds in getting a degree and not understanding that attendance is insufficient to pass. Complaints don't revolve around resource issues, as much as expectations of high/unreasonably high levels of academic support and, it has to be said, clutching at straws because of the cultural inability to accept failure. If you have invested your whole family's future in your degree, you might as well continue the complaints process to the bitter end and beyond. That isn't the case for all complaints, but it is a significant, and rapidly increasing proportion of them.

Universities are addressing these issues (and indeed, the various other sources of complaint) but it is a learning process for both parties because the specific issues are very nuanced (about how instructions are received and interpreted, about the willingness to see the early warning signs of academic difficulties, about asking for help, about continuing language training alongside routinely timetabled lectures etc) and not glaringly obvious at first sight.

Reply 7

nulli tertius

Original post by threeportdrift

....

I have followed these comments with some interest.

Obviously last year was the AAB year. I think some of your comments implied that ABB was the threshold to escape number controls last year. The current cycle is the ABB year.

The impression I see as an outsider is that last year was characterised by an assumption that nothing much would change. This year most institutions that suffered shortfalls have worked on the basis that last year was a blip. However, one or two universities have taken radical steps. Liverpool cut its standard offer for law from AAA to ABB. Making the same offers as the likes of Hertfordshire and Kingston really does upset the apple cart. I do not know what other subjects have done. Birmingham has also been radical with pre-A level unconditional offers.

The key question is whether last year truly was a blip. UCAS has noticeably refused to publish statistics during the cycle. Universities cannot go on year after year under-recruiting to try and hold a league table position. My guess is that there will be a number of universities that under-recruit for the second year running and next year the gloves really will be off.

The head of the department of chemical physicstry at Redbrick University is going to say "Bugger the league tables. I want to keep my job. If I don't get bums on seats for the third year running, they will close my department down. I don't really care any more whether they apply with ABB in Latin, cookery and media studies. If they want to come to Redbrick, I will have them and what is more I am going to send some of my PhD students to loiter around the maths and law departments' open days to see if we can grab some of them as well"

Reply 8

threeportdrift

Careers Forum Helper

Original post by nulli tertius

Yup, typo, fat fingers, long day at work - probably all those things!

Original post by nulli tertius

The impression I see as an outsider is that last year was characterised by an assumption that nothing much would change. This year most institutions that suffered shortfalls have worked on the basis that last year was a blip. However, one or two universities have taken radical steps. Liverpool cut its standard offer for law from AAA to ABB. Making the same offers as the likes of Hertfordshire and Kingston really does upset the apple cart. I do not know what other subjects have done. Birmingham has also been radical with pre-A level unconditional offers.

Actually, lat year the assumption was made that everything could change, but no-one knew what would, and many/most places were frozen by the uncertainty. In fact, nothing much changed.

And the rest of us (RG) are waiting to see what happens with baited breath to the radical approach. Most seem to think it is going to backfire badly because the more strategic picture is that there is going to be an ever increasing divide created by funding opportunities. Some might suggest a division into a set of 'elite' universities and a set of........let's call them Polytechnics! In which case, what is going to matter in the next 10 years is being worth 40k of debt. There's probably only capacity for 30 of those types of institutions and you can bet that those in position 70-20 are going to fight tooth and nail to get into that to 30. So now is not the time to drop down the League Tables, whatever we think of them.

Original post by nulli tertius

UCAS refuse to publish in year in order to prevent HEFCE (the Government) changing the rules in-year in response. The Universities can see what is happening to them on a near daily basis (weekly, to smooth out the peaks and troughs of application deliveries etc. I think Universities are going to be much sharper this year in taking in capacity where there is demand, and presumably they now understood how to increase offers and build in a 'tail'.

Original post by nulli tertius

The head of the department of chemical physicstry at Redbrick University is going to say "Bugger the league tables. I want to keep my job. If I don't get bums on seats for the third year running, they will close my department down. I don't really care any more whether they apply with ABB in Latin, cookery and media studies. If they want to come to Redbrick, I will have them and what is more I am going to send some of my PhD students to loiter around the maths and law departments' open days to see if we can grab some of them as well"

It may well vary from institution to institution, but at mine, the Head of Department doesn't get a vote, or at least, doesn't have the control at Confirmation to make that decision. Those sort of quality versus quantity decisions are made at PVC/DVC/VC level.

It may well take 3-5 years post graduation of the new 9k cohort to work through, but your degree now has to offer you about 40k worth of value in order to be worth it (plus/minus the individuals own value of the maturing experience of Uni, vocational qualifications etc). Employability and reputation are going to become the currencies, and keeping a high 'UCAS score on entry' is going to be key to that.

*my personal opinions, not my institutions' I should add!

Reply 9

Craghyrax

Original post by threeportdrift

In terms of influence, it is not my fault that I am influential. I could post with a dupe account in order to avoid people reacting to me as a moderator, but that is very impractical because it stops me responding to my moderation duties as they arise while going about my ordinary usage. Furthermore if you would take a look at my first post on this page, I opened with 'what are your thoughts' which I hope suggests to people that I am open and interested in alternate views and that I am not trying to 'influence' everybody into holding the same views as I do. Indeed it was precisely because I am interested in testing my conclusions from the news that I posted my opinions as suggested conclusions.
If you are disappointed in me for not having the time, and certainly not the interest, in finding out about the intricate details of University's planning cycles, then I'm afraid I can't really live up to your standards. If you read policy and planning documents for fun while you were doing your PhD then I take my hat off to you. But personally, I am tired out enough by doing my own doctoral research to have the willpower to read more heavy things outside of allocated work time.
There are quite a few highly informed people on TSR, and I respect them and are grateful to them. But I don't agree with the implication that people should not be allowed to express an opinion based on just reading the news. News articles are matched to most peoples' levels of interest, and people who do have more expertise or read more on this site are in the minority. If everybody were to avoid discussing their ideas because they'd only gotten an impression from the news, then this site would fail in less than 24 hours. Furthermore it is a benefit of this site that people express views freely. If I didn't do so, you would not have been prompted to post with more detail and I would have carried on with a limited understanding. That is true for users across the site.

Furthermore, in your latest reply to me, you still haven't responded to my open question about the state of University funding. So I'm left to conclude that most of the opinion that I've gathered from following the news is not woefully misinformed Even if the level of complaints has only spiked for some Universities, and is mostly sourced by international students, in the absence of any countervailing reasons from you, it still seems to me very reasonable to assume that funding constraints are hitting Universities and could hypothetically alter student experience. I know directly that my own University has taken on more students than it has the space to reasonably support, and that it is struggling with the funds to build the necessary additional space. Staff don't have enough office space, and there are timetabling problems because of the lack of rooms to hold lectures and seminars in. That is just an anecdotal example, of course, but it shows that the problem I suggest is certainly possible. And that is the same for the international student issue. Saying that these students 'should' request help doesn't alter the fact that they are not doing so and that Universities like mine are facing a problem in that regard.

Original post by nulli tertius

The key question is whether last year truly was a blip. UCAS has noticeably refused to publish statistics during the cycle. Universities cannot go on year after year under-recruiting to try and hold a league table position. My guess is that there will be a number of universities that under-recruit for the second year running and next year the gloves really will be off.

The head of the department of chemical physicstry at Redbrick University is going to say "Bugger the league tables. I want to keep my job. If I don't get bums on seats for the third year running, they will close my department down. I don't really care any more whether they apply with ABB in Latin, cookery and media studies. If they want to come to Redbrick, I will have them and what is more I am going to send some of my PhD students to loiter around the maths and law departments' open days to see if we can grab some of them as well"

I know that my own department is stressed about student numbers because when I made enquiries about my teaching load for next year they stressed that they had no way of knowing whether there would be enough to give PhDs teaching or not.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 10

OedipusTheKing

Of course people are going to complain, if the fees increase phenomenally and the quality remains the same. I was having a language session last month and there wasn't even enough chairs or desks in the room – it makes me wonder where the money actually goes. Perhaps I'll put in a freedom of information request to my university.

Reply 11

nulli tertius

Original post by Craghyrax

and is mostly sourced by international students,

I am not so sure all of this can be dismissed as complaints by Jonny Foreigner. They may be the harbingers, not least because they have been paying eye-watering fees for far longer. I come from a different complaints culture in the legal profession where complainants can be divided into three types; those who have a valid point, those who have an unreasonable service level expectation, and the clients for whom it is impossible to provide a profitable legal service. As people who access legal services are drawn from the wider community (though possibly with a tendency to litigiousness) there is every likelihood that university complainants can be broken down similarly. I suspect home complainants will follow the overseas ones in significant numbers.