Turn on thread page Beta

Should you be exempt from providing certain services due to religious objections? watch

    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    Making this thread in light of the amendment tabled in the Lords that registrars should be exempt from marrying same-sex couples if they conscientiously object.

    So, if you are in a job (whether public or private) and you believe your religious beliefs prohibit you from serving certain people or performing a certain service/duty, should the state allow you to be free of such a duty?

    Examples:

    • People who work in chemists who do not want to give out any medication to do with abortion.
    • Doctors who do not want to perform abortions.
    • Registrars who do not want to marry same-sex couples or perform civil partnership ceremonies.
    • Not wanting to come into contact with certain meats, due to religious beliefs.

    Some more extreme examples include not wanting to serve homosexuals full-stop, etc.

    Should employers (whether public or private) be forced or encouraged to make exceptions on the grounds of religious belief?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    If it's private, then it should be up to the employer to decide the rules, and no one should be legally exempt from those.

    If it's public, then no one should be exempt from anything - everyone should be treated equally.

    This goes for all situations, regardless of the beliefs and the service.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Treeroy)
    If it's private, then it should be up to the employer to decide the rules, and no one should be legally exempt from those.

    If it's public, then no one should be exempt from anything - everyone should be treated equally.

    This goes for all situations, regardless of the beliefs and the service.
    Basically this, it is that simple.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    No. God doesn't definitely exist, but gay people do. So why should the latter be denied anything due to the former?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    bump
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    It depends I think. A doctor may not want to perform an abortion but performing an abortion is a tiny part of a doctors job that they would rarely be asked to do unless you are a specialist. While if you don't want to touch pork but work in a fast food van that sells 50 sausages a day then my thoughts are 'why did you even apply?' I think it depends on how valuable an employ still is to the company given their refusal to do a certain task.

    A Muslim could be very valuable as a doctor but near useless in a brewery.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob :))
    It depends I think. A doctor may not want to perform an abortion but performing an abortion is a tiny part of a doctors job that they would rarely be asked to do unless you are a specialist. While if you don't want to touch pork but work in a fast food van that sells 50 sausages a day then my thoughts are 'why did you even apply?' I think it depends on how valuable an employ still is to the company given their refusal to do a certain task.

    A Muslim could be very valuable as a doctor but near useless in a brewery.
    I agree with this, but how do you draw a line in the sand? I mean, a registrar will probably rarely do gay marriages/civil partnerships, but most people accept that they should not be able to object to doing so.

    I suppose a doctor's ability to specialise makes avoiding abortion an easy task, and they could probably do so by their own accord and without having to even go into the reason - just by simply specifying to focus on a different area of medicine.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Olenna Tyrell)
    I agree with this, but how do you draw a line in the sand? I mean, a registrar will probably rarely do gay marriages/civil partnerships, but most people accept that they should not be able to object to doing so.

    I suppose a doctor's ability to specialise makes avoiding abortion an easy task, and they could probably do so by their own accord and without having to even go into the reason - just by simply specifying to focus on a different area of medicine.
    Oh they should just be fired as its discrimination. To Hell with their religion. If a doctor said he wouldn't treats black people or gays because its against his religion would that be acceptable? No. Religion can't be used as a disguise for discrimination.
    Offline

    7
    ReputationRep:
    If you want to run a B&B and discriminate against a certain group in society that's fine as long as it is clearly advertised that this is your policy. I wouldn't go to a hotel that actively discriminated against gays, but the hotel owner should have every right to discriminate if he so wishes. It's no different to those Warner holidays that don't allow children.

    If you own a pharmacist then you can choose not to sell abortion related products. If you're simply working for a pharmacist then you can either leave your beliefs at home or hope that your employer understands your concerns (which I don't think they are obliged to).
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Habibul Bashar)
    If you want to run a B&B and discriminate against a certain group in society that's fine as long as it is clearly advertised that this is your policy. I wouldn't go to a hotel that actively discriminated against gays, but the hotel owner should have every right to discriminate if he so wishes. It's no different to those Warner holidays that don't allow children.
    I assume that, if you believe that B&Bs should be allowed to discriminate on such grounds, then other providers of services should be able to as well?

    Say a gay couple lives in a small Surrey village with a high Christian population - the pharmacist doesn't like gays so refuses to serve them, as does the local grocer. The gay couple then go to the next village and find out that the pharmacist and grocer there also feel the same way. How would this be fair or just?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    I'm a big fan of no special treatment for the religious.

    If you want to be able to discriminate against people based on your religious beliefs, then I must be able to discriminate against you. So if you turn away a gay couple, if I owned a shop I would not serve you. If you refuse to prescribe certain medications then you best be ok if I refuse to serve you somewhere or sell you something.

    What I think is better is that religious people are not allowed to discriminate for the most part.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    It's called conscientious objection and yes it should be allowed. The arguments being made here are rather silly and rooted in a fixation with religion and religion impingingon the rights of others. It's not about religion, it's about moral convictions, doing what you believe to be right. If you want you can offer contracts to some new marriage registrars, doctors, pharmacists etc. that would legally oblige them to provide those services when requested ensuring the availability of the service.

    A state that forces people to go against their morals is not a liberal state.
    Offline

    7
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Olenna Tyrell)
    I assume that, if you believe that B&Bs should be allowed to discriminate on such grounds, then other providers of services should be able to as well?

    Say a gay couple lives in a small Surrey village with a high Christian population - the pharmacist doesn't like gays so refuses to serve them, as does the local grocer. The gay couple then go to the next village and find out that the pharmacist and grocer there also feel the same way. How would this be fair or just?
    You make a very valid point but equally why should anyone be forced to sell their products/services to anyone?

    Why should a racist be discriminated against for opening a white-only hairdressers? Let him open his shop and reject customers if he wishes. It is his loss. As long as it the policy is clearly signposted, white consumers can choose whether or not they want to support a company with such a discriminatory policy.

    Allow people to discriminate, otherwise then you are discriminating against those who want to discriminate

    The state banning people from doing things is always concerning. Our society is mature enough to ensure that discriminatory companies will find it hard to succeed.

    Obviously state-owned organisations like the NHS must not be allowed to discriminate.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Habibul Bashar)
    The state banning people from doing things is always concerning. Our society is mature enough to ensure that discriminatory companies will find it hard to succeed.

    Obviously state-owned organisations like the NHS must not be allowed to discriminate.
    The reason why we don't allow racist businesses is because the existence of such businesses would be socially harmful. People should not be subjected to rascism just because some other people would like to practice rascism.

    And the state 'bans' people from doing a whole host of things, not all of which I hope would be concerning to you. The prohibition on murder is not concerning for example.
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Study Helper
    (Original post by Olenna Tyrell)
    I agree with this, but how do you draw a line in the sand? I mean, a registrar will probably rarely do gay marriages/civil partnerships, but most people accept that they should not be able to object to doing so.

    I suppose a doctor's ability to specialise makes avoiding abortion an easy task, and they could probably do so by their own accord and without having to even go into the reason - just by simply specifying to focus on a different area of medicine.

    (Original post by Jacob :))
    Oh they should just be fired as its discrimination. To Hell with their religion. If a doctor said he wouldn't treats black people or gays because its against his religion would that be acceptable? No. Religion can't be used as a disguise for discrimination.
    This!
    This example is one of discrimination.
    The examples of not believing in abortion or serving alcohol or whatever are not discrimination, so are fine legally. However, the employers should be under no obligation to employ you if you won't partake in their role, yet may decide to do so!
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RVNmax)
    This!
    This example is one of discrimination.
    The examples of not believing in abortion or serving alcohol or whatever are not discrimination, so are fine legally. However, the employers should be under no obligation to employ you if you won't partake in their role, yet may decide to do so!
    Define discrimination in the example of gay couples and marriage registrars. If the service of marriage registry is freely available to prospective same sex partners then what is the problem with some registrars not wanting to provide their services based on their being a conscientious objector?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Define discrimination in the example of gay couples and marriage registrars. If the service of marriage registry is freely available to prospective same sex partners then what is the problem with some registrars not wanting to provide their services based on their being a conscientious objector?
    What's the problem with some doctors refusing to treat black people?
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by OedipusTheKing)
    Basically this, it is that simple.
    I think basically the opposite of this. Its not simple in the slightest - its very complex and there are no clear answers.

    Firstly, we need to draw a distinction between refusing to do a specific thing and refusing to serve a specific person. They are quite different, although both are sort of debatable.

    For doing a specific thing... on the one hand, we allow doctors to refuse to refer for abortions (as long as they provide the name of another doctor who will do the referral), but on the other, if a doctor strongly objected to referring for lung cancer treatment in a smoker because they did it to themselves, say, they'd be sacked on the spot for negligence. The only difference is an arbitrary measure of how 'acceptable' the objection is, really.

    You've also got a practical aspect here: if a butcher objects to handling pork/beef... well then he can't do his job. Discrimination laws do have to take that into account.

    With regards to specific people, car insurance companies discriminate heavily on age, but not on race (or gender, any more). Why? Again, a fairly arbitrary perception of 'acceptability'. You can try to break this part down into changeable and unchangeable characteristics, but ultimately there is an undeniable and arbitrary 'acceptability' factor.

    I certainly agree that religion should not be an independent factor in how we make these decisions. However, on a practical level a lot of strongly held objections are based on religion, and religion is still very common, so our policies are going to reflect this to an extent.

    Its all about what we find acceptable - the overall moral views of a nation. Far from simple!
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob :))
    What's the problem with some doctors refusing to treat black people?
    Probably the Hippocratic Oath?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AeneasBK)
    Probably the Hippocratic Oath?
    It's not used anymore. But there are more examples. What's wrong with a shopkeeper not selling to a black man? Or a bus driver not letting an Asian on a bus?
 
 
 
Poll
Is the Big Bang theory correct?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.