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A Levels are Meaningless. Can you honestly Disagree?

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Reply 140

Wez

popop12345

unis are now insisting on seeing UMS marks,

Really?

I've never heard of this. :frown:

Reply 141

PrinceOfCats

Wez

Really?

I've never heard of this. :frown:

There's a thread about it.

Reply 142

dragons_circle

wez

unis are now insisting on seeing UMS marks,

Actually to be accurate only Cambridge requires UMS marks. Next year a pilot scheme of around 10 unis will see module grades only, and it will be extended to all unis the year after.

Also it's easy to take the high road about reading mark schemes, but if examiners insist on such pedantic and exact wording to be worth marks, I don't see how any other way is possible. In some subjects, it is very easy to have all the knowledge required and yet be awarded very little because the wording is not the same as in the mark scheme. Memorising exact answers for typical questions requires less effort than understanding and gives more marks, so that's what people will understandably do.

Reply 143

kizer

I don't see the problem from learning from mark schemes - it is an excellent way to make sure there aren't holes in your knowledge.

Anyway I feel the people claiming A Levels are ALL about exams, you don't learn anything, etc, are kidding themselves for the sake of being contrarian. I have learnt a lot in the last two years, and the work I have done has been excellent preparation for the degree I want to do (PPE), as well as reading more widely via english. If you can't see any merit in A Levels, the problem is with you.

Reply 144

Wez

dragons_circle

Actually to be accurate only Cambridge requires UMS marks. Next year a pilot scheme of around 10 unis will see module grades only, and it will be extended to all unis the year after.

I think you misquoted. :wink:

I didn't make the claim: I questioned the claim.

But thanks for clearing up. :smile:

kizer

I don't see the problem from learning from mark schemes - it is an excellent way to make sure there aren't holes in your knowledge.

I think it's a good way to get high grades, but it's fundamentally a bit silly, as you learn a very limited range of vocabulary, as they want you to use specific words, which could often be replaced by other suitable words or phrases which have the same meaning.

Reply 145

dragons_circle

Sorry wez - I saw the quote by PrinceOfCats and automatically used the same name!

Reply 146

Alan Smithee

Athena

And often are replaced when the mark scheme is updated, and the same fact may be said in a variety of different ways depending on which mark scheme you are considering. Like mutualistic/symbiotic, and partially permeable/semi permeable/selectively permeable.

In essay subjects, looking at pure module scores is nonsense, it's creating robots.

Reply 147

popop12345

Wez

I think it's a good way to get high grades, but it's fundamentally a bit silly, as you learn a very limited range of vocabulary.

Thank you for clearing up my point, as opposed to getting a wider knowledge base you are learning an exam making it a learning exercise rather than thinking and understanding.

Reply 148

Godmaster

It is not the quantity or the quality of the subject that is generally the issue but the grade boundaries. I think we should just bring back raw score marking for humanities/arts subjects and comparitive marking for the sciences. It is ridiculous that someone can get an A with 19/35 in an AS paper and full marks with just 24/35 (a low B in raw marks). This will seperate the sheep from the goats. In fact, if they applied raw score marking, I would gestimate at least a 5% drop in the proportion of pupils attaining each grade, moreso for the top A-B grades and a substantial number of pupils failing altogether (ie; at least 10%).

Reply 149

Robert602

Argue for a simple increase in grade boundaries all you like (though it has been brought up a few times before) but pure raw scores don't work in a world of modular exams and multiple exam boards.

The reason we have UMS is to account for variation in difficulty from paper to paper. Without the UMS system we're relying on the people who write the exam scripts to get the difficulty level bang on the nose each time, and anyone who's sat A levels knows that doesn't happen.

Reply 150

SithMaster

Going back to the original question...

A levels most certainly arn't meaningless. This is quite evident as you need them to get into university. :biggrin:

Reply 151

roseannafrascona

I don't think that it is neccessarily the exams which are getting easy, but the amount of revision materials at our finer tips which means those who can simply remember and recall information are ranked next to those who can actually work things out for themsleves. For example in English a student could pay very little attention all year and then read york notes before their exam and as long as their writing style is good they can come out tops. I think peoples ability to think for themseles needs more emphasis as a student can easily get by without doing so which frankly I think is pretty bad.This is partly to do with the style of teaching in which students often spend alot of their time being taught how to take exams: it IS put out on a plate for us to take. I think the UMS scores being listed (as Cambridge request) is a step towards being able to distinguish between ability HOWEVER, one still has difficulty seperating those who have really learnt their stuff from those who just get lucky. I suppose this is inevitable with any exam though. Despite my views I don't claim to be a fantastically high achiever, somtimes people, unlike the original messanger, do not have the ability to retain information so well.

Reply 152

Alan Smithee

Boris Johnson's article in Sunday's Observer pretty much sums up my views on this matter.

Reply 153

ExitMusic

Conversation with the DoS of Medicine at Queens' (Cam):

DrF: So you're school has moved to the baccaclaureate system now?
Me: Yes - although I'm not too sure why exactly.
DrF: Well, I think its because A-Levels are becoming progressively useless at determining a good candidate and they realise that. [etc.]

Reply 154

Robert602

I think that just backs up what's been said so far. Most people seem to agree that A levels are close to useless in the eyes of top tier admissions tutors, but that only makes them meaningless if you're applying for a top tier university. An AAA still means quite a bit to other universities and indeed non-graduate employers.

Reply 155

Alewhey

Well I can only assume that educators around the country have been following this thread closely and our sagacious arguments have pursuaded them to take action. Viva the internets!

Linky

Tougher A levels to restore prestige of exam! Hail the conquering heroes!

Or not. Unfortunately it appears that the headline is a bit sensational, and that the proposed changes are: Introducing the A* for 90%+ UMS, making the essay questions less structured, and cutting the number of modules from 6 to 4 to allow deeper study. Or something. And they could or could not do a bunch of other crap as well.

Will any of this make a difference? No. They need to overhaul the whole A-level system from the ground up. But that might be a lot of effort and make the guberment look stoopid for talking out of their behinds for the last few years (I found a Labour quote as old as 2002 stating "students are working harder and the standards of teaching are going up and that's why we have seen this improvement in results"). Don't expect any real changes any time soon. Boo.

Reply 156

alispam

They make 'changes' and yet still refuse to do anything about the fact you can resit limitless numbers of modules...that definitely needs to be changed. you can't compare someone with an A overall who's never resat anything and someone with an A who's resat 2/3/4 modules (unless medical reasons etc.)

Reply 157

kizer

To be honest, at A2 level in arts subjects, there isnt a huge problem - like in history, you already have to answer several open ended questions, and do a long independent coursework. Ditto english etc etc. Maybe if A2 level was made an separate qualification, the problem would lessen, as nowhere near as many people do so well at A2.

Reply 158

kellywood_5

kizer

Maybe if A2 level was made an separate qualification, the problem would lessen, as nowhere near as many people do so well at A2.

The problem is that, with high marks at AS (which could equally be achieved through resits) you can get away with Cs at A2 and still get As overall. You should need to get As in both parts of the course to get one overall.

Reply 159

kizer

^^ Totally agree, and that's what I mean - so instead of someone now getting an 'A', they would get 'AC', where that meant they acheived A in AS an C at A2. So if someone's results slip was:

History: AC
English: AB
Maths: AB

It would be clear this person started to struggle in A2 year.

A Levels are Meaningless. Can you honestly Disagree?

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