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Everything is preordained, but not in a religious way... watch

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    This is just my own personal thoughts on life, the universe and everything. Feel free to disprove me, agree with me or lose all sense of purpose because of me. Whatever you do, it was decided before any of us were born...

    So here's the idea: Today a mug shattered. It shattered because I dropped it. I dropped it because my sister came up behind me and startled me. She came up behind me because she wanted to get to the kitchen. She wanted to go to the kitchen because.... etc. The idea is that everything is caused by something or somethings else. If you trace all these actions back eventually you get back to the dawn of life, which happened because (check out the super scientific explanation) a bunch of chemicals all bounced around in just the right way to make life, they bounded around that way because they had bounced off other particles, which bounced off them because they bounced off other stuff, etc, until we get back to the Big Bang. Therefore, the mug smashing was decided at the moment of the Big Bang.

    So what about human decisions and free will? Well, when I chose the mug I would drink out of, it was because I liked the design. I like the design because it has forget-me-nots on it, and I like forget me nots because we had them in the garden as a child. We had them in a garden as a child because... Essentially, our reasoning process is a result of our environment and previous experience -whether consciously or not-(we don't touch nettles, because in the past we have been stung, or we look before crossing the road because of a video we watched in year 1 we can't remember). Our environment is determined by the Big Bang thing I explained above, and so everything was decided at the point of the Big Bang. Not because of some mystical being, but because of the physics of what happened then.

    This means that if we knew everything about every subatomic particle in the universe, we could predict everything.

    As I said, if I am wrong about something, correct me. As long as you can explain and provide evidence, I will welcome new knowledge
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    I dont agree at all.

    And actually your point about knowing everything about every subatomic particle is incorrect. Have you studied quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? It states that we cannot know everything about a particle simultaneously, it's simply impossible.
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    (Original post by Juvia)
    This is just my own personal thoughts on life, the universe and everything. Feel free to disprove me, agree with me or lose all sense of purpose because of me. Whatever you do, it was decided before any of us were born...

    So here's the idea: Today a mug shattered. It shattered because I dropped it. I dropped it because my sister came up behind me and startled me. She came up behind me because she wanted to get to the kitchen. She wanted to go to the kitchen because.... etc. The idea is that everything is caused by something or somethings else. If you trace all these actions back eventually you get back to the dawn of life, which happened because (check out the super scientific explanation) a bunch of chemicals all bounced around in just the right way to make life, they bounded around that way because they had bounced off other particles, which bounced off them because they bounced off other stuff, etc, until we get back to the Big Bang. Therefore, the mug smashing was decided at the moment of the Big Bang.

    So what about human decisions and free will? Well, when I chose the mug I would drink out of, it was because I liked the design. I like the design because it has forget-me-nots on it, and I like forget me nots because we had them in the garden as a child. We had them in a garden as a child because... Essentially, our reasoning process is a result of our environment and previous experience -whether consciously or not-(we don't touch nettles, because in the past we have been stung, or we look before crossing the road because of a video we watched in year 1 we can't remember). Our environment is determined by the Big Bang thing I explained above, and so everything was decided at the point of the Big Bang. Not because of some mystical being, but because of the physics of what happened then.

    This means that if we knew everything about every subatomic particle in the universe, we could predict everything.

    As I said, if I am wrong about something, correct me. As long as you can explain and provide evidence, I will welcome new knowledge
    This is interesting. Is it acctually possible to trace everything to the dawn of life?

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    If everything is predetermined, then if we were to start an identical Big Bang to create a second universe, and the physical laws operating there were all the same as in our universe, then everything that has happened in our universe would happen in the new universe.

    Conventionally this makes sense because it adheres to our understanding of cause and effect, but given what we now know regarding quantum indeterminacy and the unpredictability of the behaviour of particles, I don't think anyone can say for sure how it would turn out. If anything, to say that it would all turn out the same would seem to depend on a law hitherto undiscovered governing the behaviour of that indeterminacy.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I dont agree at all.

    And actually your point about knowing everything about every subatomic particle is incorrect. Have you studied quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? It states that we cannot know everything about a particle simultaneously, it's simply impossible.
    It's a minor point but to run to his defence here, strictly speaking he is correct (provided we knew all the variables in the equation, including future quantum random events). He said, "if we knew everything about every subatomic particle in the universe, we could predict everything." Your comment speaks to his premise, saying that it is false (that we cannot know everything about every subatomic particle in the universe), but the argument stays true, as its validity does not depend on us being able to collect that information, and merely suggests that if we could, then we would be able to make our predictions.
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    (Original post by miser)
    It's a minor point but to run to his defence here, strictly speaking he is correct (provided we knew all the variables in the equation, including future quantum random events). He said, "if we knew everything about every subatomic particle in the universe, we could predict everything." Your comment speaks to his premise, saying that it is false (that we cannot know everything about every subatomic particle in the universe), but the argument stays true, as its validity does not depend on us being able to collect that information, and merely suggests that if we could, then we would be able to make our predictions.
    But he's already taken the view that everything's preordained. From his paragraph, it seems as if he assumes that it's possible to know everything about a sub-atomic particle, but that we may not yet have the technology to do it, or it hasn't yet been figured out. I think this is what he meant rather than just throwing out a hypothetical situation in which it would be possible.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I dont agree at all.

    And actually your point about knowing everything about every subatomic particle is incorrect. Have you studied quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? It states that we cannot know everything about a particle simultaneously, it's simply impossible.
    So, particles are completely random?
    Surely a random universe has just as much of a capacity for free will as a preordained one?
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    So, particles are completely random?
    Surely a random universe has just as much of a capacity for free will as a preordained one?
    How does a preordained universe have the capacity for free will if everything has been decided beforehand?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But he's already taken the view that everything's preordained. From his paragraph, it seems as if he assumes that it's possible to know everything about a sub-atomic particle, but that we may not yet have the technology to do it, or it hasn't yet been figured out. I think this is what he meant rather than just throwing out a hypothetical situation in which it would be possible.
    Ah, I see where you are coming from. When I read it, I did not get the impression that he believed it would be possible to know everything about every sub-atomic particle, so my perspective differed from yours.

    Even in the absence of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, it would seem unlikely that we could measure all matter and energy in existence, though I don't like to make a habit of estimating limits on the scope of future technologies.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    How does a preordained universe have the capacity for free will if everything has been decided beforehand?
    That's my point. I may have worded it a bit oddly :erm: apologies.

    A preordained universe has no capacity for free will as everything that will happen has already been "mapped out", so to speak. A completely random universe has no capacity for free will either because if events are random we would not be able to have any control over them.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I dont agree at all.

    And actually your point about knowing everything about every subatomic particle is incorrect. Have you studied quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? It states that we cannot know everything about a particle simultaneously, it's simply impossible.
    I think that's a limit on measurement, not on reality. IE a particle can have a position and momentum that are both perfectly accurate, however there is a fundamental limit to observation that means even if the measuring devices are better than this limit, we can't know to more than a certain level.

    That means that the uncertainty principle doesn't mean determinism is impossible. Personally I don't think free will is compatible with science or the naturalistic view.
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)
    I think that's a limit on measurement, not on reality. IE a particle can have a position and momentum that are both perfectly accurate, however there is a fundamental limit to observation that means even if the measuring devices are better than this limit, we can't know to more than a certain level.

    That means that the uncertainty principle doesn't mean determinism is impossible. Personally I don't think free will is compatible with science or the naturalistic view.
    Of course, I'm not saying that a particle has one or the other, but that we will never be able to accurately know the value of both.

    Also, miser's post seems sensible, even without Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I doubt it would ever be possible to map the properties of every particle in the Universe.
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    That's my point. I may have worded it a bit oddly :erm: apologies.

    A preordained universe has no capacity for free will as everything that will happen has already been "mapped out", so to speak. A completely random universe has no capacity for free will either because if events are random we would not be able to have any control over them.
    Oh, I get you. So I assume you dont believe in free will then?

    I dont think the universe is completely random, after all, doesnt observation itself alter/affect the system scientists look at, specifically in terms of sub-atomic particles?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Of course, I'm not saying that a particle has one or the other, but that we will never be able to accurately know the value of both.

    Also, miser's post seems sensible, even without Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, I doubt it would ever be possible to map the properties of every particle in the Universe.
    We don't need to know those properties for the particle to have those properties, and behave accordingly. We don't need to know the outcome for the outcome to be predetermined!

    I dont think the universe is completely random, after all, doesnt observation itself alter/affect the system scientists look at, specifically in terms of sub-atomic particles?
    Yes; however the observation itself was also predetermined and theoretically predictable.
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    (Original post by Hypocrism)



    Yes; however the observation itself was also predetermined and theoretically predictable.
    Are you stating that as fact or just using the OP's argument?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Are you stating that as fact or just using the OP's argument?
    Not fact; I don't think we'll ever have scientific evidence to whether there is free will or not. But from my perspective (naturalism) that would have to be the truth.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Oh, I get you. So I assume you dont believe in free will then?

    I dont think the universe is completely random, after all, doesnt observation itself alter/affect the system scientists look at, specifically in terms of sub-atomic particles?
    Yeah, I suppose I'm a determinist.

    But couldn't it still be so random that humans effectively had no free will? '
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    Yeah, I suppose I'm a determinist.

    But couldn't it still be so random that humans effectively had no free will? '
    I guess that is one way to look at it.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But he's already taken the view that everything's preordained. From his paragraph, it seems as if he assumes that it's possible to know everything about a sub-atomic particle, but that we may not yet have the technology to do it, or it hasn't yet been figured out. I think this is what he meant rather than just throwing out a hypothetical situation in which it would be possible.
    I thought he meant it in the way people say,
    so if we could travel faster than light, we could time travel.
    This doesn't mean people think we'd be able to travel faster than light, it just means if we could, we'd be able to time travel.
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    Yh this is an argument I once had with my RE teacher, she claimed that everything is caused by something and that sounds plausible cause there have been moments in my life where i've done something wrong ealier in the day only for that error to benefit me later on in the day.

    But then my teacher claimed that god is the uncaused cause, meaning that he/she is the only thing that simply was, there drom the beginning no birth or anything like that.

    Thats where she lost me :-S


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