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Simple Limit Question

I'm just getting used to limits and formal proofs.

Let g be a real-valued 1-1 function with domain (c 1, c + 1). Let lim x→c g(x) = A. Prove or disprove: lim y→A g−1(y) = c.

I can't really articulate mathematically what I think, but I'm thinking yes it does have to be. I'm just thinking the first limit wouldn't exist at a discontinuity, and as it's one-to-one the inverse exists.

Any guidance is appreciated.
Reply 1
Original post by Wathen
I'm just getting used to limits and formal proofs.

Let g be a real-valued 1-1 function with domain (c 1, c + 1). Let lim x→c g(x) = A. Prove or disprove: lim y→A g−1(y) = c.

I can't really articulate mathematically what I think, but I'm thinking yes it does have to be. I'm just thinking the first limit wouldn't exist at a discontinuity, and as it's one-to-one the inverse exists.

Any guidance is appreciated.

So the question is:
Let g:(c1,c+1)Rg: (c-1, c+1) \to \mathbb{R} be injective, and denote limxcg(x)=A\displaystyle \lim_{x \to c} g(x) = A. Is it true that limyAg1(y)=c\displaystyle \lim_{y \to A} g^{-1}(y) = c?
It looks like we have to assume that the first limit exists. Have you written out the epsilon-delta definitions and compared them? And what does injectivity allow you to do with respect to the inverse? (that is, does it allow you to give a left-inverse or right-inverse?)
Original post by Wathen
I'm just getting used to limits and formal proofs.

Let g be a real-valued 1-1 function with domain (c 1, c + 1). Let lim x→c g(x) = A. Prove or disprove: lim y→A g−1(y) = c.

I can't really articulate mathematically what I think, but I'm thinking yes it does have to be. I'm just thinking the first limit wouldn't exist at a discontinuity, and as it's one-to-one the inverse exists.

Any guidance is appreciated.


I'm not sure exactly what you are allowed to assume, but there are two approaches that immediately present themselves.

One is to simply work through the epsilon-delta definitions to make the deduction, which is grueling but pretty simple.

you can improve it by applying some theorems, like the limit existing implies continuity, and then continuity implies etc. (
Reply 3
Possibly I'm missing something, but the previous posts seem to imply the limit exists, but I think otherwise. (That is, I have a counterexample).
Reply 4
Original post by DFranklin
Possibly I'm missing something, but the previous posts seem to imply the limit exists, but I think otherwise. (That is, I have a counterexample).

I was assuming the limit A exists, because otherwise the question doesn't make sense.
Reply 5
Original post by Smaug123
So the question is:
Let g:(c1,c+1)Rg: (c-1, c+1) \to \mathbb{R} be injective, and denote limxcg(x)=A\displaystyle \lim_{x \to c} g(x) = A. Is it true that limyAg1(y)=c\displaystyle \lim_{y \to A} g^{-1}(y) = c?
It looks like we have to assume that the first limit exists. Have you written out the epsilon-delta definitions and compared them? And what does injectivity allow you to do with respect to the inverse? (that is, does it allow you to give a left-inverse or right-inverse?)


Original post by TheMagicMan
I'm not sure exactly what you are allowed to assume, but there are two approaches that immediately present themselves.

One is to simply work through the epsilon-delta definitions to make the deduction, which is grueling but pretty simple.

you can improve it by applying some theorems, like the limit existing implies continuity, and then continuity implies etc. (


I've played around with the epsilon and delta definitions, but I'm not seeing where that's going and can't make any conclusions that make sense.

The same person has posted a very slightly different version of the question (not sure which is the right one!). Is this easier or harder?

Let g be a function with an inverse g−1, and let limx→c g(x) = A. Prove or disprove: limy→A g−1(y) = c.
Continuity, or lack of, seems to be the key.

We have. limxcg(x)=A\displaystyle\lim_{x\to c} g(x)=A, but I haven't seen any requirement that g(c)=Ag(c)=A, so suppose it doesn't.
Reply 7
Original post by Smaug123
I was assuming the limit A exists, because otherwise the question doesn't make sense.
II agree the limit A must exist for the question posed; I was referring to the limit you're asked to prove or disprove.

Although thinking more about the initial counter example I had in mind, there's a second problem: the question implicitly assumes that limyAg1(y)\lim_{y \to A} g^{-1}(y) makes sense. That is, that there's a interval around A s.t. g1g^{-1} is defined on that interval (possibly excluding the point A itself).

For my counterexample, that's not true. (You can fix it to get a counterexample where the second limit does make sense, but it's a little more work).
Reply 8
Original post by DFranklin

Although thinking more about the initial counter example I had in mind, there's a second problem: the question implicitly assumes that limyAg1(y)\lim_{y \to A} g^{-1}(y) makes sense. That is, that there's a interval around A s.t. g1g^{-1} is defined on that interval (possibly excluding the point A itself).


I don't think the wording of the question is much good, but if we assume everything that we have to assume for it to make sense (i.e. what you mentioned above), then it seems to me that the result is true (in the sense that I can't see room for a counterexample, not in the sense that I proved it).


For my counterexample, that's not true. (You can fix it to get a counterexample where the second limit does make sense, but it's a little more work).

What are you referring to as "not true", here?

Can you put up your counterexample? I'm interested to see where you think this fails.
Reply 9
atsruser
..

Spoiler

Reply 10
Original post by DFranklin

Spoiler



I think that question has to be read as saying that the inverse function *is* defined, so I don't think that this is a counterexample.
Original post by atsruser
I think that question has to be read as saying that the inverse function *is* defined, so I don't think that this is a counterexample.
I think it's fairly clear you can extend that counterexample to be onto (although doing it explicitly would be tedious). If you think you have a proof to the contrary, I'd be interested to see it.

I also don't think your interpretation is reasonable anyhow - you wouldn't need to specify the function is 1-1 if you could assume the inverse existed anyhow.
(edited 10 years ago)

Spoiler

Reply 13
Original post by DFranklin

Spoiler



OK, I agree. That's quite nice. And I guess ghostwalker's comment earlier is rather relevant here.
Original post by atsruser
OK, I agree. That's quite nice. And I guess ghostwalker's comment earlier is rather relevant here.
FWIW, I think it's likely something was lost in the original post. Question seems too difficult for a "simple limit question" (and also too badly worded).
Reply 15
Original post by Wathen
I'm just getting used to limits and formal proofs.

Let g be a real-valued 1-1 function with domain (c 1, c + 1). Let lim x→c g(x) = A. Prove or disprove: lim y→A g−1(y) = c.

I can't really articulate mathematically what I think, but I'm thinking yes it does have to be. I'm just thinking the first limit wouldn't exist at a discontinuity, and as it's one-to-one the inverse exists.

Any guidance is appreciated.


If the limxcg(x)=A\displaystyle lim_{x \rightarrow c} g(x)=A limit exists this will mean from
the definition that for any >0\displaystyle \in>0 there is a 0<ρ<1\displaystyle 0<\rho<1 such that g(x)A<\displaystyle |g(x)-A|<\in
when xc<ρ\displaystyle |x-c|<\rho..
That is the existence of this limit means that you have found ρ\displaystyle \rho as
function of the \displaystyle \in. Let it be ρ=u()\displaystyle \rho=u(\in)

For the question:
From the definiion of the limit this second limit exists if any 0<ρ<1\displaystyle 0<\rho<1 there is a \displaystyle \in such that g1(y)c<ρ\displaystyle |g^{-1}(y)-c|<\rho when yA<\displaystyle |y-A|<\in.
For the existence of this limit you have to find min{g(x)}<<max{g(x)}\displaystyle \min \{g(x)\}< \in< \max \{g(x)\} in function of ρ\displaystyle \rho. This will be the =u1(ρ)\displaystyle \in=u^{-1}(\rho) function if u is invertible here.
(edited 10 years ago)

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