Links between mathematical ability and Asperger's syndrome
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My score was 21, so very slightly towards the autistic end of the spectrum... I was diagnosed with Asperger's as a young 'un, but when I was about 15 I had sessions with a psychologist who basically said this diagnosis was a load of rubbish due to the many things I can do that Aspie's normally can't - I play virtually every team sport, I've made plenty of new friends at college (even if I do find it a struggle sometimes), I regularly attend nighttime social gatherings and I'm doing fine at a job involving plenty of social interaction. I think Asperger's does exist - most of us will have some of the traits and be somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, but there comes a point where someone has so many negative traits that a psychological condition must be a possibility. If someone is really sociable, or sociable to any normal (difficult to define 'normal', I know) extent, then they can't have Asperger's imo - it's a social disorder at the end of the day!
I guess I'm decent at maths, got an A* at GCSE, on for an A at AS-level and got a gold in the 16-18 UKMT (didn't qualify for the next round admittedly, then again I was the only non-FM student to get a gold
), but I didn't take further because I wouldn't say I'm a mathematical genius by any means, and I prefer chm/bio. My dad's a bit on the quirky side, but I wouldn't even consider categorising him as having Asperger's, even if my mum sometimes jokes that he does (she's DEFINITELY not btw, I'd be amazed if her score was above 10). My dad's quite good at maths, but he doesn't have any qualifications in it due to being a child in the days of the secondary moderns. Then again, he doesn't use it at all for his job so it's no real problem; he always helped my with maths very well until I started it at GCSE anyway. My mother, on the other hand, is absolutely hopeless. I'd imagine my younger sisters would have a lower AQ score than me but, although they're not bad at it by any means, they struggle with maths quite a bit more than I do. I guess how things are in family supports your hypothesis that the further along the autistic spectrum you are, the better you are at maths.
I guess I'm decent at maths, got an A* at GCSE, on for an A at AS-level and got a gold in the 16-18 UKMT (didn't qualify for the next round admittedly, then again I was the only non-FM student to get a gold
), but I didn't take further because I wouldn't say I'm a mathematical genius by any means, and I prefer chm/bio. My dad's a bit on the quirky side, but I wouldn't even consider categorising him as having Asperger's, even if my mum sometimes jokes that he does (she's DEFINITELY not btw, I'd be amazed if her score was above 10). My dad's quite good at maths, but he doesn't have any qualifications in it due to being a child in the days of the secondary moderns. Then again, he doesn't use it at all for his job so it's no real problem; he always helped my with maths very well until I started it at GCSE anyway. My mother, on the other hand, is absolutely hopeless. I'd imagine my younger sisters would have a lower AQ score than me but, although they're not bad at it by any means, they struggle with maths quite a bit more than I do. I guess how things are in family supports your hypothesis that the further along the autistic spectrum you are, the better you are at maths.(edited 10 years ago)
Since there wasn't a 'middle' option, I always erred on the Aspie side of things to try to eliminate any bias coming from a lack of self-awareness, my actual score is probably a few points lower
Original post by Jkn
That is so badass!
I completely disagree with this! I am quite sociable (and am good at maths) but feel that, since I've immersed myself in it, I've become someone who exhibits some traits of Asperger's. Like I get really obsessed with maths (like a problem I can't do that I feel I am making process on) and if I can't understand something I'll often obsess over it and (accidentally) stay up all night! Do you do things like this? Because it's rare to have a student of, say, Biology do something similar (especially "accidentally"). I use Biology here as they tend to have lower than average AQ scores.
Yes, I do that occasionally. But I think that's just extreme stubbornness and the desire to improve rather than aspergers. Certainly one can spend a lot of time tossing and turning over philosophical problems. But the problem with the soft sciences and humanities is that often there are no definite conclusions, so you might as well give up when you've made reasonable progress on a question. With maths, solving problems feels much more like a game with absolute rules and absolute progress. I think it's this certainty which drives us on for hours and hours till a problem has been completely unravelled.
I certainly think there is a link because certain brains find maths easier. Some people need rigour and unambiguity to understand and often struggle to know what simple phrases mean as multiple meanings occur to them. Others cannot understand things in such a rigorous 'harsh' form and yet understand simple phrases with ease because they made the natural assumption about what someone might say before they said it.
Yes, my dad does not like ambiguity in wording. He will constantly question me, if I say something ambiguous, till it's understood what I mean. Can be quite annoying. But, I think he could just let the vagueness slide if he wanted to.
Having a mind that works well with things that are rigorous as well as not naturally making assumptions are two things that are certainly important when it comes to mathematics, would you not think?
(My opinion as well
)
I completely disagree with this! I am quite sociable (and am good at maths) but feel that, since I've immersed myself in it, I've become someone who exhibits some traits of Asperger's. Like I get really obsessed with maths (like a problem I can't do that I feel I am making process on) and if I can't understand something I'll often obsess over it and (accidentally) stay up all night! Do you do things like this? Because it's rare to have a student of, say, Biology do something similar (especially "accidentally"). I use Biology here as they tend to have lower than average AQ scores.
Yes, I do that occasionally. But I think that's just extreme stubbornness and the desire to improve rather than aspergers. Certainly one can spend a lot of time tossing and turning over philosophical problems. But the problem with the soft sciences and humanities is that often there are no definite conclusions, so you might as well give up when you've made reasonable progress on a question. With maths, solving problems feels much more like a game with absolute rules and absolute progress. I think it's this certainty which drives us on for hours and hours till a problem has been completely unravelled.
I certainly think there is a link because certain brains find maths easier. Some people need rigour and unambiguity to understand and often struggle to know what simple phrases mean as multiple meanings occur to them. Others cannot understand things in such a rigorous 'harsh' form and yet understand simple phrases with ease because they made the natural assumption about what someone might say before they said it.
Yes, my dad does not like ambiguity in wording. He will constantly question me, if I say something ambiguous, till it's understood what I mean. Can be quite annoying
. But, I think he could just let the vagueness slide if he wanted to.Having a mind that works well with things that are rigorous as well as not naturally making assumptions are two things that are certainly important when it comes to mathematics, would you not think?
(My opinion as well
)Yes, totally. I can agree, but then again doing anything obsessively might make one a bit anti-social. Nothing in excess as the Greeks say.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by moritzplatz
ahahah
joking
joking
haha :P I still got firsts in the modules that are sort-of shared in some way with the maths department.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Jkn
Ah okay, well 80%+ would co-ordinate to ability to get an A grade at regular maths A-level (roughly half of the population take it I think, then 40% of those get an A/A*). So that would likely correspond to anyone at any uni for maths I would say?
The maths course at the top 4 unis would probably be within the capabilities of only that same 2% that I specified previously as everyone at Cambridge and Warwick would certainly not struggle to get a grade 2 in STEP I, and Warwick (and often occasionally Imperial, Bath, Bristol, UCL, etc.. often ask for these grades). So perhaps the top 2% is those at unis that (can) ask for STEP (so top 6/7?)
Actually:
Out of those taking (full) A-level maths (which I think is 10% of 18-year-olds in the UK, so we can divide all percentages by 10 only we get to the 'very good' category as we can then assume those who didn't take A-level maths would not be in that category),
I'd say "okay" would refer to that top 40% (A grade at A-level),
and then "good" would be the top 5/10% (those likely to be (capable of) getting A*A* at maths A-levels),
and then "very good" would be the the top 2% (those likely to gain entry to one of the top few unis in the country and/or capable of a grade 2 in STEP),
and then "outstanding" would be the top 0.5% (those likely to gain entry to Oxbridge and/or those capable of a grade 1 in STEP II or STEP III (not necessarily 'and')),
and then "exceptionally gifted" would be the top 0.1% (grade S in STEP II or STEP III, possibly also good scores in BMO1 and/or capability with BMO2-level (though many candidates get 1 or 2 marks on the day, as their topics don't come up)),
and then "near-genius level" would be the top 0.01% (seriously competing for a place in the IMO team).
The maths course at the top 4 unis would probably be within the capabilities of only that same 2% that I specified previously as everyone at Cambridge and Warwick would certainly not struggle to get a grade 2 in STEP I, and Warwick (and often occasionally Imperial, Bath, Bristol, UCL, etc.. often ask for these grades). So perhaps the top 2% is those at unis that (can) ask for STEP (so top 6/7?)
Actually:
Out of those taking (full) A-level maths (which I think is 10% of 18-year-olds in the UK, so we can divide all percentages by 10 only we get to the 'very good' category as we can then assume those who didn't take A-level maths would not be in that category),
I'd say "okay" would refer to that top 40% (A grade at A-level),
and then "good" would be the top 5/10% (those likely to be (capable of) getting A*A* at maths A-levels),
and then "very good" would be the the top 2% (those likely to gain entry to one of the top few unis in the country and/or capable of a grade 2 in STEP),
and then "outstanding" would be the top 0.5% (those likely to gain entry to Oxbridge and/or those capable of a grade 1 in STEP II or STEP III (not necessarily 'and')),
and then "exceptionally gifted" would be the top 0.1% (grade S in STEP II or STEP III, possibly also good scores in BMO1 and/or capability with BMO2-level (though many candidates get 1 or 2 marks on the day, as their topics don't come up)),
and then "near-genius level" would be the top 0.01% (seriously competing for a place in the IMO team).
You really think 1 in 200 people have a chance of getting into Oxbridge for maths? There's about 1000 people in my year at college, and I reckon only 4/5 have got a shot. There's a significant proportion of the general population who doesn't take A-levels, don't forget
Original post by Blutooth
haha :P I still got firsts in the modules that are sort-of shared in some way with the maths department.
how many modules do you have??
everything changed since last year for maths, possibly the same happened for your course.
I got 35, but as far as I know I'm not aspergers. I love maths but am not exceptionally good at it, much better at music though which could be related
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I ended up guessing some of those questions. Some are so vague 'I enjoy the bigger picture more than the details'. That's all very nice and verbose, but what does it even mean?! Such ambiguous questions are very difficult to answer honestly. Most of my responses were the middle two. Still I came out in the 'average' category. I'm not bad at mathematics but I'm no genius or anything and I haven't been diagnosed with Autism/Aspergers.
Original post by moritzplatz
how many modules do you have??
everything changed since last year for maths, possibly the same happened for your course.
everything changed since last year for maths, possibly the same happened for your course.
Well, I do elements of deductive logic which is taken by the maths&Phil and compSci&Phil and is very similar to the logic module from the maths department- perhaps more in depth as it is given 2* the weighting of a maths module.
We do the same probability module as the maths people, and I think there are some 3rd year mathmos who take the compsci lectures in functional programming and Algorithms as additional modules.
Probability
Elements of Deductive Logic
Discrete Maths
Algorithms
Functional programming
Imperative programming
General Philosophy
Linear Algebra (over the holidays)
Turing on computability and Intelligence (summary of Godels proof and lots of diaginalisation proofs)
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Blutooth
Well, I do elements of deductive logic which is taken by the maths&Phil and compSci&Phil and is very similar to the logic module from the maths department- perhaps more in depth as it is given 2* the weighting of a maths module .
We do the same probability module as the maths people, and I think there are some 3rd year mathmos who take the compsci lectures in functional programming and Algorithms as additional modules.
We do the same probability module as the maths people, and I think there are some 3rd year mathmos who take the compsci lectures in functional programming and Algorithms as additional modules.
ok so essentially the overlapping is like 3-4%
Original post by moritzplatz
ok so essentially the overlapping is like 3-4%
There are also some third year modules from the maths department we can take, like integer programming and set theory, which I might do. But meh, what do I care.
Original post by Jkn
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
High functioning austics/ people with aspergers are of average intelligence or above average intelligence, so there obviously is a correlation between AQ and IQ (assuming IQ is an accurate of measure of intelligence....)
What distinguishes someone to be a high or low function autistic is arguably intelligence/ the ability to be independently ept and the ability to be self-aware i.e someone who is classed as a vunerable adult/child.
Original post by bananarama2
I'll be the one awkwardly trying to make conversation (with a girl *cough*).
Slayer
I've decided not to do Physics Chemical Engineering, my original choice, is definitely for me. I'm not doing Compsci in my first year, I'm doing Material Sciences instead plus the obvious choices.
I'm having seeds of doubt planted in my mind too. I fear the time when they develop into saplings and then sturdy oak trees. Hopefully that'll be after my holiday.
Chemical Engineering, my original choice, is definitely for me. I'm not doing Compsci in my first year, I'm doing Material Sciences instead plus the obvious choices. I'm having seeds of doubt planted in my mind too. I fear the time when they develop into saplings and then sturdy oak trees. Hopefully that'll be after my holiday.
No way, I thought you were a Physicist!
Don't worry man, I'm sure you obliterated!
Original post by moritzplatz
mine in the sense that is the one I defined.
Sorry rewind. What category are you in? Only 100 people?
why would you want to restrict to 18 years old?
Not restrict. I use that age as it's the latest age at which people have common exams and is also an age where there is a lot of diversity in terms of competitions etc..
STEP is a joke, it's just tricks, real mathematics is something else, but I guess you are not even at uni, so you have time to find that out.
A "joke"? Have you actually has experience with taking STEP (at 18 or younger that is)? Yes, it's probably not "real" maths as there is an underlying eccentricity to the questions as a result of it partly being in place to assess teachability (which makes the test, in some ways, 'beatable') but to say that it's "just tricks" is simply incorrect.
If the hardest pre-uni maths competition in the world is 'just tricks and memorisation' and the entrance exam to the #1 ranked university for maths is 'just tricks and memorisation', then what could anyone pre-uni possibly do to impress you?
What would you respect?I find that rather patronising that you would assume that I am unable to ascertain the meaning of STEP and university maths through ignorance. I've actually studied many higher-level topics already..
Original post by Bulbasaur
Got 27, got an A/A* in A level maths (obviously don't know which until results day)
Good luck!
Original post by MrSupernova
It's a social disorder at the end of the day!
Hmm, well said
Your hypothesis that the further along the autistic spectrum you are, the better you are at maths.
Also, I'm starting to think the test has a natural biased towards people that like maths that could explain some of those 10 or so extra points in the study I read (the rest, perhaps, by social factors that could be cause by secondary things like social isolation brought on by doing something many aren't interested in). There are questions like "Do you like numbers?" etc..clearly every mathematician is going to strongly agree (suggested the causation behind the correlation is a love of maths rather than an ability)
Original post by Blutooth
Yes, totally. I can agree, but then again doing anything obsessively might make one a bit anti-social. Nothing in excess as the Greeks say.
Mmm, you've raised some good points. Perhaps we must settle for after all
Original post by MrSupernova
You really think 1 in 200 people have a chance of getting into Oxbridge for maths? There's about 1000 people in my year at college, and I reckon only 4/5 have got a shot. There's a significant proportion of the general population who doesn't take A-levels, don't forget
1 in 200 given that you are completing a full A-level in maths (read what I put a few pages back). So essentially I am saying roughly 1 in 2000 (which is roughly 400-500 people, which I'd say is spot on)
4/5 people having a shot in your college would probably be well above average. My college has similar numbers to yours and yet I don't think that anyone else would be capable of Oxbridge for maths (perhaps one guy would be able to get in to a top Russell group)
Original post by Jkn
Has anyone got any light they can shed on this? I find it rather interesting to think that there may be some sort of correlation between the two things.
A while ago, I took the AQ test (takes 5/10 minutes so give it a go!) and scored 25. The average is 15-17 and people with Asperger's syndrome tend to score 30-50. I know of a lot of famous mathematicians and physicists (Newton, Einstein, etc..) that supposedly had Asperger's, but is this a coincidence?
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
-Average AQ score for a person with a talent for (or interest in) mathematics
-Whether or not there are any blatant exceptions (top mathematicians/physicists who would have low AQ scores)
-What proportion of students who participate in high-level competitions like the IMO, BMO2 and the IPhO could be classed as having some form of Asperger's.
-Whether or not the so-called 'syndrome' even exists (does it makes sense to have 'Asperger's traits' and, if so, what does this mean?) and whether or not people that supposedly have it often have parts of their personality that do not fit with this (i.e. really sociable, make friends easily, etc..)
-Are your parents likely to have similar AQ scores to you?
-Is it strange to have mathematical abilities despite everyone else in your family being unusually poor at maths and, if so, would this suggest Asperger's?
I'm curious for the sake of academia but am also curious for personal reasons (though I know I don't have Asperger's and even if I did it wouldn't make any difference - so I don't mean like that).
Would be really interested if whoever comments could post what AQ score they got on the test above (especially if you are a fellow maths-fan!) though, if you don't think the test is a good indicator, then I would be interested to hear about that too!
(inb4 "online tests aren't accurate", that's only with IQ tests, this is a test where you can choose the answers and is based on honestly. Also, as far as I am aware, the test always has the same 50 questions).
A while ago, I took the AQ test (takes 5/10 minutes so give it a go!) and scored 25. The average is 15-17 and people with Asperger's syndrome tend to score 30-50. I know of a lot of famous mathematicians and physicists (Newton, Einstein, etc..) that supposedly had Asperger's, but is this a coincidence?
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
-Average AQ score for a person with a talent for (or interest in) mathematics
-Whether or not there are any blatant exceptions (top mathematicians/physicists who would have low AQ scores)
-What proportion of students who participate in high-level competitions like the IMO, BMO2 and the IPhO could be classed as having some form of Asperger's.
-Whether or not the so-called 'syndrome' even exists (does it makes sense to have 'Asperger's traits' and, if so, what does this mean?) and whether or not people that supposedly have it often have parts of their personality that do not fit with this (i.e. really sociable, make friends easily, etc..)
-Are your parents likely to have similar AQ scores to you?
-Is it strange to have mathematical abilities despite everyone else in your family being unusually poor at maths and, if so, would this suggest Asperger's?
I'm curious for the sake of academia but am also curious for personal reasons (though I know I don't have Asperger's and even if I did it wouldn't make any difference - so I don't mean like that).
Would be really interested if whoever comments could post what AQ score they got on the test above (especially if you are a fellow maths-fan!) though, if you don't think the test is a good indicator, then I would be interested to hear about that too!
(inb4 "online tests aren't accurate", that's only with IQ tests, this is a test where you can choose the answers and is based on honestly. Also, as far as I am aware, the test always has the same 50 questions).
Mathematical ability is a skill. Asperger's is a diagnosis - a label attached by the medical profession to people who exhibit certain symptoms. The trouble is that it's easy to jump from the label to believing people are 'ill', and so 'broken' or 'defective' and need to be 'cured' or fixed'. We could diagnose people whose height exceeds say 2m as suffering from 'beanpole's syndrome', which may be associated with ability to play basketball. But we don't cut their legs off to fix them.
I understand that diagnosis is associated with a high 'systemising ability' or SQ. This is about ability to spot patterns and errors, which to my mind is a key mathematical skill. The other requirement is a low EQ - empathising ability, which is about reading someone's emotional state from facial expressions and body language.
For the record, I get high scores on SQ (my CDs are indeed in alphabetical order of composer). To those who cannot 'get' why I do this, I explain that untidy sequences are dissonant to me just like musical disharmony. I've been described as gifted mathematically.
My EQ scores are average for a bloke. Women typically score higher.
For a while I was a volunteer at the Autism Research Centre in Cambridge. They need a panel of subjects with this high SQ/average EQ mix to act as a control group for their various tests. So I've been through a lot of experiments!
My work with able mathematicians brings me into contact with many people who would probably be diagnosed with Aspergers. Generally speaking it strikes me that two sources of discomfort arise. Some are hurt by the label and feel defective or excluded. Others are puzzled or scared by the unexplained behaviour of other people. A common word is 'irrational' - why would they do that?
Original post by Jkn
Sorry rewind. What category are you in? Only 100 people?
Not restrict. I use that age as it's the latest age at which people have common exams and is also an age where there is a lot of diversity in terms of competitions etc..
A "joke"? Have you actually has experience with taking STEP (at 18 or younger that is)? Yes, it's probably not "real" maths as there is an underlying eccentricity to the questions as a result of it partly being in place to assess teachability (which makes the test, in some ways, 'beatable') but to say that it's "just tricks" is simply incorrect.
If the hardest pre-uni maths competition in the world is 'just tricks and memorisation' and the entrance exam to the #1 ranked university for maths is 'just tricks and memorisation', then what could anyone pre-uni possibly do to impress you? What would you respect?
I find that rather patronising that you would assume that I am unable to ascertain the meaning of STEP and university maths through ignorance. I've actually studied many higher-level topics already..
Sorry rewind. What category are you in? Only 100 people?
Not restrict. I use that age as it's the latest age at which people have common exams and is also an age where there is a lot of diversity in terms of competitions etc..
A "joke"? Have you actually has experience with taking STEP (at 18 or younger that is)? Yes, it's probably not "real" maths as there is an underlying eccentricity to the questions as a result of it partly being in place to assess teachability (which makes the test, in some ways, 'beatable') but to say that it's "just tricks" is simply incorrect.
If the hardest pre-uni maths competition in the world is 'just tricks and memorisation' and the entrance exam to the #1 ranked university for maths is 'just tricks and memorisation', then what could anyone pre-uni possibly do to impress you?
What would you respect?I find that rather patronising that you would assume that I am unable to ascertain the meaning of STEP and university maths through ignorance. I've actually studied many higher-level topics already..
I wasn't talking about me...
anyway, how do you explain that China wins the IMO (almost) every year, yet (almost) none of them has been able to make progresses in research?
the problem is that I claim that it is pretty much impossible to assess mathematical ability before university, because maths ability is related to research results.
Original post by Jkn
Has anyone got any light they can shed on this? I find it rather interesting to think that there may be some sort of correlation between the two things.
A while ago, I took the AQ test (takes 5/10 minutes so give it a go!) and scored 25. The average is 15-17 and people with Asperger's syndrome tend to score 30-50. I know of a lot of famous mathematicians and physicists (Newton, Einstein, etc..) that supposedly had Asperger's, but is this a coincidence?
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
-Average AQ score for a person with a talent for (or interest in) mathematics
-Whether or not there are any blatant exceptions (top mathematicians/physicists who would have low AQ scores)
-What proportion of students who participate in high-level competitions like the IMO, BMO2 and the IPhO could be classed as having some form of Asperger's.
-Whether or not the so-called 'syndrome' even exists (does it makes sense to have 'Asperger's traits' and, if so, what does this mean?) and whether or not people that supposedly have it often have parts of their personality that do not fit with this (i.e. really sociable, make friends easily, etc..)
-Are your parents likely to have similar AQ scores to you?
-Is it strange to have mathematical abilities despite everyone else in your family being unusually poor at maths and, if so, would this suggest Asperger's?
I'm curious for the sake of academia but am also curious for personal reasons (though I know I don't have Asperger's and even if I did it wouldn't make any difference - so I don't mean like that).
Would be really interested if whoever comments could post what AQ score they got on the test above (especially if you are a fellow maths-fan!) though, if you don't think the test is a good indicator, then I would be interested to hear about that too!
(inb4 "online tests aren't accurate", that's only with IQ tests, this is a test where you can choose the answers and is based on honestly. Also, as far as I am aware, the test always has the same 50 questions).
A while ago, I took the AQ test (takes 5/10 minutes so give it a go!) and scored 25. The average is 15-17 and people with Asperger's syndrome tend to score 30-50. I know of a lot of famous mathematicians and physicists (Newton, Einstein, etc..) that supposedly had Asperger's, but is this a coincidence?
Some facts/statistics I would be interested in:
-Correlation between AQ and IQ
-Average AQ score for a person with a talent for (or interest in) mathematics
-Whether or not there are any blatant exceptions (top mathematicians/physicists who would have low AQ scores)
-What proportion of students who participate in high-level competitions like the IMO, BMO2 and the IPhO could be classed as having some form of Asperger's.
-Whether or not the so-called 'syndrome' even exists (does it makes sense to have 'Asperger's traits' and, if so, what does this mean?) and whether or not people that supposedly have it often have parts of their personality that do not fit with this (i.e. really sociable, make friends easily, etc..)
-Are your parents likely to have similar AQ scores to you?
-Is it strange to have mathematical abilities despite everyone else in your family being unusually poor at maths and, if so, would this suggest Asperger's?
I'm curious for the sake of academia but am also curious for personal reasons (though I know I don't have Asperger's and even if I did it wouldn't make any difference - so I don't mean like that).
Would be really interested if whoever comments could post what AQ score they got on the test above (especially if you are a fellow maths-fan!) though, if you don't think the test is a good indicator, then I would be interested to hear about that too!
(inb4 "online tests aren't accurate", that's only with IQ tests, this is a test where you can choose the answers and is based on honestly. Also, as far as I am aware, the test always has the same 50 questions).
Yep.
Daniel Tammet has aspburgers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TJxI-WUMs
I don't think you can expect a human being to have an extreme ability to think in such detail and have good social acumen, either way one side has to give. Social acumen is random and down to cultural subjective variations.
Mathematics is consistent and rational.
Original post by moritzplatz
i think we need to define what it means to be good at maths.
I agree.
We're not talking easy peasy A-level maths. We're talking vangard breaking new territory math.
Original post by Chlorophile
I want to point out a few things. Firstly, people are using the words "Autism" and "Asperger's" as if they're the same thing, when they're not. Secondly, scoring high in the AQ test does not mean you have Asperger's syndrome.
With regard to the correlation, it's certainly not true that people with Asperger's are always good at mathematics. Aspies often excel at logical thinking and have obsessive behaviour, but this definitely does not always manifest itself in terms of high mathematical ability. However, there is definitely a higher prevalence of high mathematical ability amongst people with Asperger's.
Also, Asperger's syndrome definitely exists. I don't think that any informed person would doubt that. What a lot of people don't understand is that it's a spectrum disorder, so everyone is affected in different ways. You can have two people with Asperger's who are completely different. Having said that, people with Asperger's are almost certainly not going to be very sociable, because difficulties or aversion to social interaction is one of the core elements of Asperger's.
I have Asperger's and my parents are completely different. I've seen families where both children and parents share autistic traits and those where the children are completely different. I don't know if there is a trend.
Having mathematical abilities that are not common in your family is definitely not a suggestion of Asperger's since mathematical ability is not a trait of Asperger's simply something that can sometimes emerge as a result of it. Mathematical ability is not genetic and there are a huge number of people without Asperger's that are unusual in their family in terms of their mathematical ability.
NB: I got 41 in that test and I'd say I'm very good at Maths.
With regard to the correlation, it's certainly not true that people with Asperger's are always good at mathematics. Aspies often excel at logical thinking and have obsessive behaviour, but this definitely does not always manifest itself in terms of high mathematical ability. However, there is definitely a higher prevalence of high mathematical ability amongst people with Asperger's.
Also, Asperger's syndrome definitely exists. I don't think that any informed person would doubt that. What a lot of people don't understand is that it's a spectrum disorder, so everyone is affected in different ways. You can have two people with Asperger's who are completely different. Having said that, people with Asperger's are almost certainly not going to be very sociable, because difficulties or aversion to social interaction is one of the core elements of Asperger's.
I have Asperger's and my parents are completely different. I've seen families where both children and parents share autistic traits and those where the children are completely different. I don't know if there is a trend.
Having mathematical abilities that are not common in your family is definitely not a suggestion of Asperger's since mathematical ability is not a trait of Asperger's simply something that can sometimes emerge as a result of it. Mathematical ability is not genetic and there are a huge number of people without Asperger's that are unusual in their family in terms of their mathematical ability.
NB: I got 41 in that test and I'd say I'm very good at Maths.
As someone who did that in her post I would like to apologies! I think its because aspergers is part of the autistic spectrum (I believe only one "down" from actual autism but I'm not very confident about that?). Therefore they are very linked in the minds of most people.
Original post by ian.slater
We could diagnose people whose height exceeds say 2m as suffering from 'beanpole's syndrome', which may be associated with ability to play basketball.
Brilliant analogy
For a while I was a volunteer at the Autism Research Centre in Cambridge. They need a panel of subjects with this high SQ/average EQ mix to act as a control group for their various tests. So I've been through a lot of experiments!
My work with able mathematicians brings me into contact with many people who would probably be diagnosed with Aspergers. Generally speaking it strikes me that two sources of discomfort arise. Some are hurt by the label and feel defective or excluded. Others are puzzled or scared by the unexplained behaviour of other people. A common word is 'irrational' - why would they do that?
Interesting stuff, I was not previously familiar with these other tests/measurements.
I wonder if you were a part of the study I found (that was done at Cambridge)
Yes, I don't see the need for labels. Either someone does or does not need support and so that is the underlying purpose of these tests. Someone shouldn't feel 'defective' as a result of Asperger's, that's a tragedy
Original post by moritzplatz
anyway, how do you explain that China wins the IMO (almost) every year, yet (almost) none of them has been able to make progresses in research?
the problem is that I claim that it is pretty much impossible to assess mathematical ability before university, because maths ability is related to research results.
anyway, how do you explain that China wins the IMO (almost) every year, yet (almost) none of them has been able to make progresses in research?
the problem is that I claim that it is pretty much impossible to assess mathematical ability before university, because maths ability is related to research results.
I believe that they win for three main reasons. Firstly, their population size (the US have a fraction of the population and tend to finish amongst the top few countries). Secondly, the general attitude in China (maths is respected and seen as a good thing to learn. It is seen as more abnormal to be bad at maths at a school than it is talented. In the UK this is the complete opposite. An example can be seen in 'Young Beautiful Minds' (the guy with the chinese girlfriend)). Thirdly, their education system fit more closely with (or is perhaps directed towards) IMO topics such as euclidean geometry. As a contrast, the UK A-levels contain almost no Geometry.
They do make progress in research?! Whaaat?!
We live in a bubble because of the language gap. Also a lot of asian/chinese people move to or grow up in different countries. Terence Tao, the greatest mathematical olympian of all time, went on to become a Field medal and is arguably the greatest pure mathematician in the world at the moment (in my opinion).Original post by Tim2341
Yep.
Daniel Tammet has aspburgers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TJxI-WUMs
I don't think you can expect a human being to have an extreme ability to think in such detail and have good social acumen, either way one side has to give. Social acumen is random and down to cultural subjective variations.
Mathematics is consistent and rational.
Daniel Tammet has aspburgers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TJxI-WUMs
I don't think you can expect a human being to have an extreme ability to think in such detail and have good social acumen, either way one side has to give. Social acumen is random and down to cultural subjective variations.
Mathematics is consistent and rational.
I've seen that documentary (will probably watch it again now
), it is rather interesting.That said, Daniel Tammet does not seem to have any mathematical ability in the way we are thinking about it (he got a B in GCSE maths, for example - whilst geniuses occasionally do strange things in maths exams (A. Einstein) someone like Terence Tao would have reached that level at the age of 4). His ability is in mental arithmetic and in other incredible areas which, whilst they make him an incredibly talented person, do not have anything to do with abilities in mathematical problem solving.
As far as I know, very few people who are good at maths are good at arithmetic as well. I could probably do some seemingly 'crazy' things like in my head but I would do them by using mathematical tricks (like writing ) though I still consider myself to be rather awful at arithmetic, constantly making stupid mistakes, especially when I am under pressure (this has become a problem for me in fact - especially in some exams
). That said, I grasped numbers and arithmetic stupidly fast and so perhaps this is an indicator that you will turn out to have some abilities when you are older? (I'm certainly no genius though LOL ).Quick Reply
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