If Germany had won WW1 Watch

c_al
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Ok, so the other thread on Germany in ww1 got me thinking about this as I know they had a chance when the French deserted their trenches. Would Germany have kept hold of the parts of the USSR they got in the treaty of Brest Litovsk? I guess theres a good chance they would have taken parts of France and more of jutland as well. What would have happened to Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman empire though.

On a wider scale a clash such as ww2 seems unlikely, at least not in the way that it panned out in reality, so there wouldn't have been all the new countries that were formed in the aftermath of ww2. I guess the empires wouldn't have been dissolved without this conflict either, so do you think there is a chance that they might still have been around today?
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Apocrypha
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If Germany won World War 1, There probably wouldnt be any Nazi Party, but I'd imagine Communism would of been more impactful.
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The Angry Stoic
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Depends when in the war you are talking about.

Did Germamy win in 1914? 17? 18?
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c_al
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Depends when in the war you are talking about.

Did Germamy win in 1914? 17? 18?
I was assuming they won by taking advantage of the French mutinies in 1917. I was also assuming they win on the eastern front at they same time as they did in real life,
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by c_al)
I was assuming they won by taking advantage of the French mutinies in 1917. I was also assuming they win on the eastern front at they same time as they did in real life,
The Austro Hungarians and Ottomans could easily have collapsed even if they won at this point I think.

It is arguably a better position. It leaves a powerful, non Nazi Germany to face down Communist Russia.
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Habsburg
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Interesting question. In many ways, a more interesting question than "what if Germany had won WWII?" (well, for me, anyway).

Germany would have invariably seized more territory. Some to the East possibly around Lodsch and Kalisch (in present day Poland), and to the West possibly in Lorraine. New, pro-German, states similar to those formed in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, would form; likely German-led Polish, Baltic, and Finnish monarchies (as per Brest-Litovsk). The Germans were also interested in forming a Ukrainian state, a republic in the Caucasus, and a Tatar republic in Crimea. This was according to their Mitteleuropa Plan. These would be ostensibly allies of Germany, although they would eventually be targets for colonisation and Germanisation. The German Reich would also be likely to seize Belgian colonies in the Congo, creating a more contigious Mittelafrika colony for themselves, although I'm not too sure how interested they were in British colonies.

Unfortunately (as I am rather enamoured with Austria-Hungary :love:), Austria-Hungary may not have survived much longer as a state. It would have had to implement something along the lines of the plans for the United States of Greater Austria (which were championed by Archduke Franz Ferdinand), giving equal self-governance to each ethnic group. However, the Hungarian administration would have opposed this, as they enjoyed their equal status with Cisleithania, and would have lost masses of territory and a lot of bargaining power if the Dual Monarchy were to become a trial, or even plural one. In the event that it survived at least winning the war, what Austria-Hungary may have demanded would be somewhat complicated by the political and social climate within the country. Elements within the Austrian administration were enthusiastic about the chance of regaining Lombardy-Venetia from the Italians, whilst the some in the Hungarian administration would have wanted to get land from Romania and Serbia. However, people in both governments were suspicious (reasonably so) about annexing any more territory - it would be foolish to add even more Slavs to the Empire, even further tipping the balance against the Germans and the Magyars.

Whilst the Bulgarians were interested in parts of Serbia and Dobruja, I don't think the Ottomans could have really got a great deal out of the war. They possibly could have regained parts of the Caucasus, but, as they were already the 'Sick Man of Europe', their chief aim was probably just to continue their existence as a state.

Another point of interest would be its effect on world politics. We are used to Liberalism (in the European democratic and capitalist sense) vs. Communism being the post-WWII consensus, but if Germany had won WWI, would it have liberalised much politically? The olde-worlde junker-style Conservatism of Germany could have had increased credence, and survived a lot longer than it has in reality. The relationship between that and the Soviet Union would have been interesting, as would the German Empire's interactions with the USA. Would we even see a future American hegemony in the case of a German win?

Italy would have been further humiliated, with no Italian-speaking lands gained at all, so we can't assume that Mussolini, or someone similar, would not have come to power there. Whilst I don't think Fascism could have gained much credence in Britain as a result of losing the war (unlike Germany, Britain had an established history of democracy and Liberalism), it would be interesting to see what would have happened in France. I don't think for one minute that they'd have caused genocide, or started a war as damaging as WWII as Hitler did, but ultra-right wing groups and early Fascists in France, similar to the Legitimist (politically, as they were counter-revolutionary; they were Orléanist in terms of succession) Action Française or Valois' Faisceau, could have gained power (though that is pure conjecture on my part). This would mirror Hitler's rise to power in the post-war Germany of reality, though I doubt they would be anything close to the Nazis - probably nothing much worse than a Latin American dictatorship (and I am aware that these were no picnics).

Whilst I don't think Hitler or the Nazis in particular would have come to power, I wouldn't entirely rule out something similar happening. Some of the ideology was already there, in the form of the Conservative Revolutionaries, and it is possible that the German Empire would have faced increasing pressure to liberalise, whilst at the same time being threatened by Communism.

Even then, I don't think that the Holocaust would have happened. Providing the Austro-Hungarians were willing to listen to ethnic concerns and offer Slavs equal legislative and executive status within the Empire, the unifying, single Habsburg monarchy encompassing Mitteleuropa could have survived, possibly avoiding some post-war issues of ethnic conflict (such as Germans and Magyars being expelled from Eastern Europe following WWII). So, in some ways, it could have been a better world had the Central Powers won.
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c_al
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(Original post by Habsburg)
Interesting question. In many ways, a more interesting question than "what if Germany had won WWII?" (well, for me, anyway).

Germany would have invariably seized more territory. Some to the East possibly around Lodsch and Kalisch (in present day Poland), and to the West possibly in Lorraine. New, pro-German, states similar to those formed in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, would form; likely German-led Polish, Baltic, and Finnish monarchies (as per Brest-Litovsk). The Germans were also interested in forming a Ukrainian state, a republic in the Caucasus, and a Tatar republic in Crimea. This was according to their Mitteleuropa Plan. These would be ostensibly allies of Germany, although they would eventually be targets for colonisation and Germanisation. The German Reich would also be likely to seize Belgian colonies in the Congo, creating a more contigious Mittelafrika colony for themselves, although I'm not too sure how interested they were in British colonies.

Unfortunately (as I am rather enamoured with Austria-Hungary :love:), Austria-Hungary may not have survived much longer as a state. It would have had to implement something along the lines of the plans for the United States of Greater Austria (which were championed by Archduke Franz Ferdinand), giving equal self-governance to each ethnic group. However, the Hungarian administration would have opposed this, as they enjoyed their equal status with Cisleithania, and would have lost masses of territory and a lot of bargaining power if the Dual Monarchy were to become a trial, or even plural one. In the event that it survived at least winning the war, what Austria-Hungary may have demanded would be somewhat complicated by the political and social climate within the country. Elements within the Austrian administration were enthusiastic about the chance of regaining Lombardy-Venetia from the Italians, whilst the some in the Hungarian administration would have wanted to get land from Romania and Serbia. However, people in both governments were suspicious (reasonably so) about annexing any more territory - it would be foolish to add even more Slavs to the Empire, even further tipping the balance against the Germans and the Magyars.

Whilst the Bulgarians were interested in parts of Serbia and Dobruja, I don't think the Ottomans could have really got a great deal out of the war. They possibly could have regained parts of the Caucasus, but, as they were already the 'Sick Man of Europe', their chief aim was probably just to continue their existence as a state.

Another point of interest would be its effect on world politics. We are used to Liberalism (in the European democratic and capitalist sense) vs. Communism being the post-WWII consensus, but if Germany had won WWI, would it have liberalised much politically? The olde-worlde junker-style Conservatism of Germany could have had increased credence, and survived a lot longer than it has in reality. The relationship between that and the Soviet Union would have been interesting, as would the German Empire's interactions with the USA. Would we even see a future American hegemony in the case of a German win?

Italy would have been further humiliated, with no Italian-speaking lands gained at all, so we can't assume that Mussolini, or someone similar, would not have come to power there. Whilst I don't think Fascism could have gained much credence in Britain as a result of losing the war (unlike Germany, Britain had an established history of democracy and Liberalism), it would be interesting to see what would have happened in France. I don't think for one minute that they'd have caused genocide, or started a war as damaging as WWII as Hitler did, but ultra-right wing groups and early Fascists in France, similar to the Legitimist (politically, as they were counter-revolutionary; they were Orléanist in terms of succession) Action Française, could have gained power (though that is pure conjecture on my part). This would mirror Hitler's rise to power in the post-war Germany of reality, though I doubt they would be anything close to the Nazis - probably nothing much worse than a Latin American dictatorship (and I am aware that these were no picnics).

Whilst I don't think Hitler or the Nazis in particular would have come to power, I wouldn't entirely rule out something similar happening. Some of the ideology was already there, in the form of the Conservative Revolutionaries, and it is possible that the German Empire would have faced increasing pressure to liberalise, whilst at the same time being threatened by Communism.

Even then, I don't think that the Holocaust would have happened. Providing the Austro-Hungarians were willing to listen to ethnic concerns and offer Slavs equal legislative and executive status within the Empire, the unifying, single Habsburg monarchy encompassing Mitteleuropa could have survived, possibly avoiding some post-war issues of ethnic conflict (such as Germans and Magyars being expelled from Eastern Europe following WWII). So, in some ways, it could have been a better world had the Central Powers won.
Thank you for the comprehensive answer
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Clayton2k14
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Wouldn't German victory resulted in the expansion of a German empire, thus eliminating the Nazis and Axis (well depending on how long that empire lasted.)

BTW I in no way condone the actions of the Central Powers and its belligerents, the above comment was mere speculation.
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mushy bananas
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if Germany would have won maybe there wouldn't have been WW2 but Germany would be the world power there would be no freedom. things like femenism homosexuals black Jews would be gone or oppressed. there would be no human rights just survival of the fittest..

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player19
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(Original post by Habsburg)
Interesting question. In many ways, a more interesting question than "what if Germany had won WWII?" (well, for me, anyway).

Germany would have invariably seized more territory. Some to the East possibly around Lodsch and Kalisch (in present day Poland), and to the West possibly in Lorraine. New, pro-German, states similar to those formed in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, would form; likely German-led Polish, Baltic, and Finnish monarchies (as per Brest-Litovsk). The Germans were also interested in forming a Ukrainian state, a republic in the Caucasus, and a Tatar republic in Crimea. This was according to their Mitteleuropa Plan. These would be ostensibly allies of Germany, although they would eventually be targets for colonisation and Germanisation. The German Reich would also be likely to seize Belgian colonies in the Congo, creating a more contigious Mittelafrika colony for themselves, although I'm not too sure how interested they were in British colonies.

Unfortunately (as I am rather enamoured with Austria-Hungary :love:), Austria-Hungary may not have survived much longer as a state. It would have had to implement something along the lines of the plans for the United States of Greater Austria (which were championed by Archduke Franz Ferdinand), giving equal self-governance to each ethnic group. However, the Hungarian administration would have opposed this, as they enjoyed their equal status with Cisleithania, and would have lost masses of territory and a lot of bargaining power if the Dual Monarchy were to become a trial, or even plural one. In the event that it survived at least winning the war, what Austria-Hungary may have demanded would be somewhat complicated by the political and social climate within the country. Elements within the Austrian administration were enthusiastic about the chance of regaining Lombardy-Venetia from the Italians, whilst the some in the Hungarian administration would have wanted to get land from Romania and Serbia. However, people in both governments were suspicious (reasonably so) about annexing any more territory - it would be foolish to add even more Slavs to the Empire, even further tipping the balance against the Germans and the Magyars.

Whilst the Bulgarians were interested in parts of Serbia and Dobruja, I don't think the Ottomans could have really got a great deal out of the war. They possibly could have regained parts of the Caucasus, but, as they were already the 'Sick Man of Europe', their chief aim was probably just to continue their existence as a state.

Another point of interest would be its effect on world politics. We are used to Liberalism (in the European democratic and capitalist sense) vs. Communism being the post-WWII consensus, but if Germany had won WWI, would it have liberalised much politically? The olde-worlde junker-style Conservatism of Germany could have had increased credence, and survived a lot longer than it has in reality. The relationship between that and the Soviet Union would have been interesting, as would the German Empire's interactions with the USA. Would we even see a future American hegemony in the case of a German win?

Italy would have been further humiliated, with no Italian-speaking lands gained at all, so we can't assume that Mussolini, or someone similar, would not have come to power there. Whilst I don't think Fascism could have gained much credence in Britain as a result of losing the war (unlike Germany, Britain had an established history of democracy and Liberalism), it would be interesting to see what would have happened in France. I don't think for one minute that they'd have caused genocide, or started a war as damaging as WWII as Hitler did, but ultra-right wing groups and early Fascists in France, similar to the Legitimist (politically, as they were counter-revolutionary; they were Orléanist in terms of succession) Action Française or Valois' Faisceau, could have gained power (though that is pure conjecture on my part). This would mirror Hitler's rise to power in the post-war Germany of reality, though I doubt they would be anything close to the Nazis - probably nothing much worse than a Latin American dictatorship (and I am aware that these were no picnics).

Whilst I don't think Hitler or the Nazis in particular would have come to power, I wouldn't entirely rule out something similar happening. Some of the ideology was already there, in the form of the Conservative Revolutionaries, and it is possible that the German Empire would have faced increasing pressure to liberalise, whilst at the same time being threatened by Communism.

Even then, I don't think that the Holocaust would have happened. Providing the Austro-Hungarians were willing to listen to ethnic concerns and offer Slavs equal legislative and executive status within the Empire, the unifying, single Habsburg monarchy encompassing Mitteleuropa could have survived, possibly avoiding some post-war issues of ethnic conflict (such as Germans and Magyars being expelled from Eastern Europe following WWII). So, in some ways, it could have been a better world had the Central Powers won.
I hope you have played the Kaiserreich mode for Hearts of Iron 2
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player19
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http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...1&d=1316952305
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peter12345
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The British Empire would probably still exist. Believe it or not but winning World War I actually helped speed up the breakup of the empire. Australians and Canadians winning battles on their own in Europe caused a lot of nationalism back home. If they had done badly then they wouldn't have been so sure o themselves to consider pulling away from Britain. And of course no future Hitler means no WW2 to destroy the British Empire.
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(Original post by mushy bananas)
if Germany would have won maybe there wouldn't have been WW2 but Germany would be the world power there would be no freedom. things like femenism homosexuals black Jews would be gone or oppressed. there would be no human rights just survival of the fittest..

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What makes you say that?
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Habsburg)
The German Reich would also be likely to seize Belgian colonies in the Congo, creating a more contigious Mittelafrika colony for themselves, although I'm not too sure how interested they were in British colonies.
How are they going to do that? I can't imagine the UK being too interested in allowing Germany more colonies in Africa, let alone giving up their own, or indeed relinquishing the German colonies they conquered, just because France lost the war.
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Habsburg
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
How are they going to do that? I can't imagine the UK being too interested in allowing Germany more colonies in Africa, let alone giving up their own, or indeed relinquishing the German colonies they conquered, just because France lost the war.
Hypothetically, we just lost the greatest war the world has ever seen to date, and beggars can't be choosers. In the event of a defeat in the European theatre, I imagine that Britain would be forced to relinquish it control over those German colonies it conquered, on top other defeated powers making concessions. This is what normally would have happened in the event of defeats. We did to it ourselves to Germany in our real-life WWI victory.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Habsburg)
Hypothetically, we just lost the greatest war the world has ever seen to date, and beggars can't be choosers. In the event of a defeat in the European theatre, I imagine that Britain would be forced to relinquish it control over those German colonies it conquered, on top other defeated powers making concessions. This is what normally would have happened in the event of defeats. We did to it ourselves to Germany in our real-life WWI victory.
Again, how can Germany force the UK to do anything? In real life Germany wasn't an island still defended by the most powerful navy in the world. It wouldn't be beyond Britain to simply take a Napoleonic-era attitude and simply shut up shop in Europe and consolidate power elsewhere instead.
Japan definitely isn't going to give up Germany's pacific colonies it conquered either.
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Habsburg
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Again, how can Germany force the UK to do anything? In real life Germany wasn't an island still defended by the most powerful navy in the world. It wouldn't be beyond Britain to simply take a Napoleonic-era attitude and simply shut up shop in Europe and consolidate power elsewhere instead.
Japan definitely isn't going to give up Germany's pacific colonies it conquered either.
The hypothetical situation is the event of a defeat of Britain in WWI by Germany. Whilst yes, what you are suggesting could have happened, in the event of a defeat, the usual post-war conventions and treaties would happen, and I am assuming what the results of these might be in light of real-life war and foreign policy aims by Germany. I am aware that not all of these would have been met, but I believe that those aims are useful to work with in considering a question such as the one in this thread.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Habsburg)
The hypothetical situation is the event of a defeat of Britain in WWI by Germany. Whilst yes, what you are suggesting could have happened, in the event of a defeat, the usual post-war conventions and treaties would happen, and I am assuming what the results of these might be in light of real-life war and foreign policy aims by Germany. I am aware that not all of these would have been met, but I believe that those aims are useful to work with in considering a question such as the one in this thread.
Hypothetically, were you in charge of German forces after the fall of France and the expulsion of the Brits from Europe, what would your next move be?
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Habsburg
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Hypothetically, were you in charge of German forces after the fall of France and the expulsion of the Brits from Europe, what would your next move be?
Are we talking diplomatically or militarily here? If you don't mind at all, I'll answer tomorrow; I have go to Dorset early tomorrow morning. Gute nacht.
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Yael
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If Germany won WWI, Bolshevik Russia would liberate us in about a decade's time.
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