The Commons Bar Mk VIII - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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barnetlad
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#3981
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#3981
After the monarchy, let's discuss another burning issue.

What lyrics is Chris Packham trying to get into Springwatch links? Not David Bowie or the Clash again I think, but I cannot work out whom
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Republic1
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"We're all in this together"


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toronto353
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(Original post by Republic1)
"We're all in this together"


I do think that taking a political comment and applying it to a politically neutral figure is somewhat unfair. By all means mock the politicians who made the comments, but not the Queen who is politically neutral and didn't.

That said, I find the general mocking of Cameron et al. for the above comment rather pathetic anyway. Surely people should vote based on policies rather than background? So what he went to Eton? Who cares?
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St. Brynjar
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(Original post by toronto353)
I do think that taking a political comment and applying it to a politically neutral figure is somewhat unfair. By all means mock the politicians who made the comments, but not the Queen who is politically neutral and didn't.

That said, I find the general mocking of Cameron et al. for the above comment rather pathetic anyway. Surely people should vote based on policies rather than background? So what he went to Eton? Who cares?
I think having different classes disproportionately represented could be problematic. It shouldn't matter, but I think representation is incredibly important, the demography of our parliament should reflect the demography of the UK. We definitely need greater representation for women and minorities.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by toronto353)
I do think that taking a political comment and applying it to a politically neutral figure is somewhat unfair. By all means mock the politicians who made the comments, but not the Queen who is politically neutral and didn't.

That said, I find the general mocking of Cameron et al. for the above comment rather pathetic anyway. Surely people should vote based on policies rather than background? So what he went to Eton? Who cares?
The reality is that people just fixate on that because they want to find fault. If you look at any number of people they can quite happily be loved despite being posh.

Farage - Seen as a man of the people because he has a fag and a pint in his hand - Privately educated investment banker - About as much a 'man of the people' in that regard as Blair's son when he's elected next year - People don't care though because they think he's genuine

Boris - A complete and utter toff who admits he does not know the price of milk - People love him because he seems genuine and appears to do a reasonable job

Gove - Adopted by a middle class family, sent to a state school until he earnt a scholarship at one of the best schools in Scotland - Seen as a toff simply because he's a Tory cabinet minister despite the fact he's achieved a very high office on merit
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Faland
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(Original post by toronto353)
I do think that taking a political comment and applying it to a politically neutral figure is somewhat unfair. By all means mock the politicians who made the comments, but not the Queen who is politically neutral and didn't.

That said, I find the general mocking of Cameron et al. for the above comment rather pathetic anyway. Surely people should vote based on policies rather than background? So what he went to Eton? Who cares?
The Queen isn't neutral, she represents the conservatism inherent in the British state and its established political class. And the point about Cameron's comment is a criticism of this entire ruling class, regardless of what colour ties they wear on Question Time. All of them talk as if there's some justice in attacking the working class by eroding our work conditions, and cutting the public services we--especially our most vulnerable--have to rely upon. Contrasting the message of "oh, you lived beyond your means, time for your just deserts" with the fact that the ruling class of capitalism, and the people made ridiculously privileged by this corrupt system, have profited massively from the system-sustaining financial crisis that they were entirely responsible for creating is a very consciousness-raising point. When the lazy, feckless, exploiters are the ones with the crowns, money and mansions, and the workers who give them this wealth punished, it shows exactly how hypocritical this system is with its false ideal of meritocracy.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by St. Brynjar)
I think having different classes disproportionately represented could be problematic. It shouldn't matter, but I think representation is incredibly important, the demography of our parliament should reflect the demography of the UK. We definitely need greater representation for women and minorities.
While i do think we need more women and ethnicities i don't think parliament must represent the demographic of the UK. Parliament is by its very nature providing a £65k job a middle class institution and that's not a bad thing per say because i wouldn't want 10% of parliament to be made up of former retail workers with little skills relevant to parliament and a lacking education like 10% of people in the country. I rather like the fact that we have a PM educated at some of the finest institutions in the UK, as was Miliband in terms of university.

The main problem besides women and ethnicity is the destruction of the grammar school system which has created a massive divide between the independent system which is regarded as world class and our state system. Since rich children have advantages in education, we end up smart politicians mostly coming from the independent system.
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St. Brynjar
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(Original post by Rakas21)
While i do think we need more women and ethnicities i don't think parliament must represent the demographic of the UK. Parliament is by its very nature providing a £65k job a middle class institution and that's not a bad thing per say because i wouldn't want 10% of parliament to be made up of former retail workers with little skills relevant to parliament and a lacking education like 10% of people in the country. I rather like the fact that we have a PM educated at some of the finest institutions in the UK, as was Miliband in terms of university.

The main problem besides women and ethnicity is the destruction of the grammar school system which has created a massive divide between the independent system which is regarded as world class and our state system. Since rich children have advantages in education, we end up smart politicians mostly coming from the independent system.

I wasn't arguing that we need to have a quota for working class quotas or anything (the Green party employs positive discrimination for example which I strongly oppose) so much, but having much of Cameron's 'inner circle' from public schools clearly isn't representative.

One point I really dislike is the anti-Oxbridge attitudes we have (admittedly I got to Cambridge so that probably influences me a fair bit!) but tertiary education really shouldn't be divisive, since admittance is based on merit rather than anything else.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by St. Brynjar)
I wasn't arguing that we need to have a quota for working class quotas or anything (the Green party employs positive discrimination for example which I strongly oppose) so much, but having much of Cameron's 'inner circle' from public schools clearly isn't representative.

One point I really dislike is the anti-Oxbridge attitudes we have (admittedly I got to Cambridge so that probably influences me a fair bit!) but tertiary education really shouldn't be divisive, since admittance is based on merit rather than anything else.
Is it really any worse than Brown's inner circle? Than Wilson;s inner circle?

While Cameron's particular inner circle does appear to stem from his education (and to be fair that is bad) you'll tend to find in the vast majority of careers that upper management will form a cabal whether it's based on school or the fact they go golfing together every week. So as much as i agree that inner circles should be discouraged i think it's another thing which is fixated on for the sake of it, indeed Blair had his couch cabinet or whatever it was called and i'm sure that was no more representative.

The majority of people outside TSR have no negative attitude to Oxford and Cambridge and would congratulate you as i am now.
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Faland
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(Original post by St. Brynjar)
I wasn't arguing that we need to have a quota for working class quotas or anything (the Green party employs positive discrimination for example which I strongly oppose) so much, but having much of Cameron's 'inner circle' from public schools clearly isn't representative.

One point I really dislike is the anti-Oxbridge attitudes we have (admittedly I got to Cambridge so that probably influences me a fair bit!) but tertiary education really shouldn't be divisive, since admittance is based on merit rather than anything else.
"Merit" aka class, 'cultural capital'?
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St. Brynjar
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(Original post by Faland)
"Merit" aka class, 'cultural capital'?
Uni access schemes are heavily favoured to those from disadvantaged backgrounds - there are a huge array of different events and support available and particular areas of deprivation and social exclusion are targeted. And social background plays a role in the applicant decision, where those from a 'worse' school have their applications weighted slightly. The system isn't perfect but it's about as fair as is possible in a neoliberal society.
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Republic1
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Faland said what I meant very well.

I can never put it into words as well as that so I just tend to dish out one liners.
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tehFrance
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(Original post by Faland)
The Queen isn't neutral, she represents the conservatism inherent in the British state and its established political class. And the point about Cameron's comment is a criticism of this entire ruling class, regardless of what colour ties they wear on Question Time. All of them talk as if there's some justice in attacking the working class by eroding our work conditions, and cutting the public services we--especially our most vulnerable--have to rely upon. Contrasting the message of "oh, you lived beyond your means, time for your just deserts" with the fact that the ruling class of capitalism, and the people made ridiculously privileged by this corrupt system, have profited massively from the system-sustaining financial crisis that they were entirely responsible for creating is a very consciousness-raising point. When the lazy, feckless, exploiters are the ones with the crowns, money and mansions, and the workers who give them this wealth punished, it shows exactly how hypocritical this system is with its false ideal of meritocracy.
My eyes, my delicate eyes... Why post a block of text, have you not heard of paragraphs?

In what way are the working classes being attacked, all I see are them being handed more benefits for working than the underclass who are being attacked as they are lazy buggers that don't work. The working class are working, contributing and are being rewarded for it through tax breaks and the like.

Capitalism is at its core corrupt yes and that's why I love it, I made money, my neighbour made money, most people I know made money from the financial/ukraine crisis... Anyone can make money during crisis, when there's blood on the streets, buy!

Meritocracy exists, people wouldn't get anywhere in life if they weren't any good and that's the problem, the people you defend are useless and bring it on themselves for being twits.
bun
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(Original post by tehFrance)
My eyes, my delicate eyes... Why post a block of text, have you not heard of paragraphs?

In what way are the working classes being attacked, all I see are them being handed more benefits for working than the underclass who are being attacked as they are lazy buggers that don't work. The working class are working, contributing and are being rewarded for it through tax breaks and the like.

Capitalism is at its core corrupt yes and that's why I love it, I made money, my neighbour made money, most people I know made money from the financial/ukraine crisis... Anyone can make money during crisis, when there's blood on the streets, buy!

Meritocracy exists, people wouldn't get anywhere in life if they weren't any good and that's the problem, the people you defend are useless and bring it on themselves for being twits.
Ladies and Gentlemen, HE'S BACK!!
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Life_peer
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(Original post by tehFrance)
No, not at all. I'm just preparing as I need to learn more, I know about construction, investments etc yet I don't know about the logistical companies nor the agricultural businesses that my father owns, both of which I need to seriously learn about as while I do know enough, I don't know enough for day to day running, if you get what I mean
Well, the Prince got land which he has been learning to take care of, so I still see a parallel. I appreciate family businesses with strong core values so good luck with that!
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Saoirse:3
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(Original post by tehFrance)
My eyes, my delicate eyes... Why post a block of text, have you not heard of paragraphs?

In what way are the working classes being attacked, all I see are them being handed more benefits for working than the underclass who are being attacked as they are lazy buggers that don't work. The working class are working, contributing and are being rewarded for it through tax breaks and the like.

Capitalism is at its core corrupt yes and that's why I love it, I made money, my neighbour made money, most people I know made money from the financial/ukraine crisis... Anyone can make money during crisis, when there's blood on the streets, buy!

Meritocracy exists, people wouldn't get anywhere in life if they weren't any good and that's the problem, the people you defend are useless and bring it on themselves for being twits.
So, about that application you made to join the Socialists...
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Jarred
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(Original post by St. Brynjar)
One point I really dislike is the anti-Oxbridge attitudes we have (admittedly I got to Cambridge so that probably influences me a fair bit!) but tertiary education really shouldn't be divisive, since admittance is based on merit rather than anything else.
The only people who are anti-Oxbridge are those who can't get over the rejection The average Joe thinks Oxbridge is the absolute creme de la creme, all singing all dancing super centre of hyper intelligence. But tell him you went to, say, Warwick/Imperial, he won't be all that impressed. Heck, if my experience has taught me anything it's that half of them haven't even heard of those places :confused: Now I too am biased here because I spent a year at Warwick last year and hope to return there this October But there shouldn't be this enormous gulf in the public perception of these universities in my opinion and it annoys me a bit.

I don't think we should be anti-Oxbridge, anyone who gets in there should be proud, but I do think we need a cultural shift to recognise a "British Ivy league" so that the average Joe sees such universities as being on a very similar level to Oxbridge. We have some absolutely amazing universities but in the public eyes it's always been "Oxbridge and the rest" when it shouldn't be. Oxbridge is the best, but our other top universities are damn close. In America, everyone knows Harvard is the best, but they'll also be impressed if you got into, say, Princeton or Columbia. We need that same level of recognition here to end the stranglehold that Oxbridge has on the public perception.
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RayApparently
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So much arguing - all I see are the irreconcilable philosophies of the left and the right.

The political classes dominated by the wealthy. It is not however pragmatic to try and impose social representation on Parliament. That can only happen over time.

I think its the whole photoshopping incident that makes it difficult to take Cameron seriously.

It is only natural that people get frustrated with the government. Eton, Oxford, Eton, Oxford and the sensation that one is powerless to shake up the system - to see leaders who are actually 'in touch' and who actually want to make the lives of individuals better.

How can the population have faith in politicians who look nothing like themselves. They might as well be from another planet and every time Osbourne photographs himself eating a burger or Cameron goes to the Takeaway with his cameraman this image is only intensified.

Of course, the Queen is another matter. Our monarchy is admired around the world as a shining remnant of a romantic era. Nostalgia is a powerful force as long as it has nothing to do with real politics.
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bun
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(Original post by Jarred)
The only people who are anti-Oxbridge are those who can't get over the rejection The average Joe thinks Oxbridge is the absolute creme de la creme, all singing all dancing super centre of hyper intelligence. But tell him you went to, say, Warwick/Imperial, he won't be all that impressed. Heck, if my experience has taught me anything it's that half of them haven't even heard of those places :confused: Now I too am biased here because I spent a year at Warwick last year and hope to return there this October But there shouldn't be this enormous gulf in the public perception of these universities in my opinion and it annoys me a bit.

I don't think we should be anti-Oxbridge, anyone who gets in there should be proud, but I do think we need a cultural shift to recognise a "British Ivy league" so that the average Joe sees such universities as being on a very similar level to Oxbridge. We have some absolutely amazing universities but in the public eyes it's always been "Oxbridge and the rest" when it shouldn't be. Oxbridge is the best, but our other top universities are damn close. In America, everyone knows Harvard is the best, but they'll also be impressed if you got into, say, Princeton or Columbia. We need that same level of recognition here to end the stranglehold that Oxbridge has on the public perception.
Couldn't agree more.

It was quite amusing in my first German lesson at Durham, we had to tell the class about why we'd chosen to study German at Durham as a sort of 'easy' warm up activity.
Everyone bar me and one other in the class said 'because I got rejected by Oxbridge'. (I didn't bother applying as the course just isn't right at those Unis - perhaps shown as Durham has just beaten them for languages in the recent league tables, not that that means much) but these people certainly seemed to both have a chip on their shoulders, and also regard every other uni as inferior - and whilst that may be the case, the gap isn't as huge as is made out!
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RayApparently
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(Original post by Jarred)
I don't think we should be anti-Oxbridge, anyone who gets in there should be proud, but I do think we need a cultural shift to recognise a "British Ivy league" so that the average Joe sees such universities as being on a very similar level to Oxbridge. We have some absolutely amazing universities but in the public eyes it's always been "Oxbridge and the rest" when it shouldn't be. Oxbridge is the best, but our other top universities are damn close. In America, everyone knows Harvard is the best, but they'll also be impressed if you got into, say, Princeton or Columbia. We need that same level of recognition here to end the stranglehold that Oxbridge has on the public perception.
What about the 'Russell Group'? Although not many people can identify every RG Uni and St Andrews etc. aren't included...
Isn't the RG compared to the 'Ivy League' as a sort of British equivalent.

Then there's the even more exclusive 'Golden Triangle': Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE
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