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Should the UK be tougher on Spain? Watch

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    I've been doing some research on Gibraltar and Spain and I'm pretty shocked at what Spain has been doing and how they have been acting towards Gibraltar.

    As we know, the recent dispute started after Gibraltar built an artificial reef to protect marine wildlife, something supported by Greenpeace and the Spanish ecology group "Verdemar Ecologistas en Accion". The Spanish Government has claimed that the reef has damaged its fishing industry and that the reef constitutes a violation of international law in Spanish waters and a violation of EU environmental law.

    However, a quick google search shows that Spain actually supports the use of artificial reefs and Spanish Government research has proven that artificial reefs are beneficial to the fishing industry. Spain has at least 130 of these reefs including some 25 along the coast of Andalusia.

    In addition, there is only one Spanish fishing vessel - the 'Divina Providencia' of La Linea - registered as fishing in the area. Although the Spanish Government is correct, these reefs can damage fishing nets, to use bottom-trawling nets in the area of the reef would be illegal under the EU's Council Regulation (EC) No 850/98. In other words, the Spanish argument is that the reef might stop them from using something which is already banned under international law.

    What really shocks me isn't just that Spain is whinging about fishing rights, but the fact that Spain is being downright nasty to the people of Gibraltar as often as they can. For example, four years ago the Spanish Government built a new sewage outflow pipe in La Linea, but instead of sending sewage out into the open water they pointed the pipe directly towards Gibraltar's 'Western Beach’, causing the beach to be closed to the public due to danergous levels of pollution. Although this has been raised in the European Parliament, the Spanish are not doing anything to deal with the issue.

    In spite of all of this, all that has happened is our PM has rung the Spanish PM and asked them not to do it again?

    Am I alone in thinking that the British Government have allowed this to go on for far too long?
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    We've raised the issue within the EU as well. Better we go about this legally and through diplomatic channels and maintain the moral highground than do what? Start shelling the coast of Spain? Or start extra checks on Spanish tourists that come into the UK, sinking down to their level? I agree with the way the UK has gone about this so far, we are appearing rational and calm where's the Spanish government look like a bunch of hypocritical nationalists attempting to divert attention from their domestic problems.
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    Yeah, as Aj12 says, there's nothing to be gained by antagonising Spain or lowering the UK to their levels at the moment. All they've done so far is made threats and the odd petty thing like the sewage pipe, so at this stage there's still a decent chance that things can be resolved amicably through the right channels - obviously steaming in with the navy would jeopardise all of that.
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    The problem is that Britain always seems to do the right thing in this case. When Argentina started kicking off last year, people tried to perceive ameron as weak for not MPA with extra aircraft and re deploying the fleet to the South Atlantic. The thing is, he's played a blinder. These two nations are just looking stupid on the international scene.

    Spain may have the right to border checks, but it was easier to transit between East and West Germany at the height of the cold war than it is to cross the border.

    The amazing thing is that Gibraltar is very important to the Spanish economy in that region, and it is a regional issue that has kicked off now.


    There's 4300 spaniards who work in Gibraltar. That's 4300 of their own people who are getting shafted by the Spanish government who isn't exactly in boom time at the moment.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17635879
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    we are appearing rational and calm where's the Spanish government look like a bunch of hypocritical nationalists attempting to divert attention from their domestic problems.
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    These two nations are just looking stupid on the international scene.
    My issue is that sure, these two nations might look stupid, but that hasn't stopped them from doing anything they please.

    For example, Argentina has made it clear that it won't work with any cruise lines who visit the Falklands. The last time a cruise liner docked in Argentina having recently been to the Falklands it was essentially blockaded by Argentina with passengers being stopped from leaving the ship (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nos-Aires.html).

    The result is that there has been a massive drop in the number of cruise liners visiting. For example, the MS Veendam was supposed to visit the Falklands 10 times between November 2012 and April 2013. After a ship from another cruise line was stopped from loading or unloading passengers in Argentina, MS Veendam (which carries 1,400 passengers or so) cancelled all 10 visits leaving 50 Falkland Islanders (who were tour guides and dock workers) out of work.

    What did HMG do about this? "Officially complained" to the Argentine ambassador. This has had absolutely no effect.

    Making them look stupid doesn't actually do anything to help the people who suffer because of Spain and Argentina's belligerence
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    I like the idea of shelling the Spanish coast.
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    I like the idea of shelling the Spanish coast.
    Why? It would just start a war and then the King of Spain would send another Armada at us. Is that what you want?
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    (Original post by flugelr)
    My issue is that sure, these two nations might look stupid, but that hasn't stopped them from doing anything they please.

    For example, Argentina has made it clear that it won't work with any cruise lines who visit the Falklands. The last time a cruise liner docked in Argentina having recently been to the Falklands it was essentially blockaded by Argentina with passengers being stopped from leaving the ship (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nos-Aires.html).

    The result is that there has been a massive drop in the number of cruise liners visiting. For example, the MS Veendam was supposed to visit the Falklands 10 times between November 2012 and April 2013.


    Damaged the Argentinian economy for the most. The Falklands Islands is still in surplus.Sabre rattling just impacts business on a lager scale.


    After a ship from another cruise line was stopped from loading or unloading passengers in Argentina, MS Veendam (which carries 1,400 passengers or so) cancelled all 10 visits leaving 50 Falkland Islanders (who were tour guides and dock workers) out of work.

    There's 100% employment in the Falklands. They actually have a labour shortage. With Falklands Oil and Gas due to come on line in the very near future I doubt they really care that much.

    What did HMG do about this? "Officially complained" to the Argentine ambassador. This has had absolutely no effect.


    What would you prefer them to do. Fire a Tomahawk Cruise missile at the presidential palace? Argentina is a social pariah a the moment. Its about to come under sanctions from the WTO. the UK is a rather influential member of the WTO.

    Making them look stupid doesn't actually do anything to help the people who suffer because of Spain and Argentina's belligerence
    escalating anything will just make those people suffer even more.

    The FCO is playing a blinder on this one. By not escalating tensions the UK takes the moral high ground.

    It'll be embarrassing to see how the Argentinians screw up their position on the UN security council
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    BBC Five "Bloke FM" Live presenter harking back this morning to the days of yore when we sent our boys over to "singe the Kings beard" if they messed with us.
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    (Original post by Plainview)
    BBC Five "Bloke FM" Live presenter harking back this morning to the days of yore when we sent our boys over to "singe the Kings beard" if they messed with us.
    Thank fully we don't do that these days as it negatively impacts on the economy and gets people killed.


    Soft power is the way to deal with stuff like that and lets see who's top of the global rankings for soft power.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz...r-survey-says/
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    (Original post by peter12345)
    Why? It would just start a war and then the King of Spain would send another Armada at us. Is that what you want?
    LOL! I'd love to see how a Spanish Armada now a days will fair against the RAF.
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    LOL! I'd love to see how a Spanish Armada now a days will fair against the RAF.
    Probably quite well, but with the back drop of international condemnation for starting a war over something quite trivial that could be sorted out diplomatically.
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    LOL! I'd love to see how a Spanish Armada now a days will fair against the RAF.
    Today's modern Spanish Armada is equipped with the latest anti-aircraft guns.
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    (Original post by peter12345)
    Today's modern Spanish Armada is equipped with the latest anti-aircraft guns.
    And it would still be over in hours as the RAF is armed with the latest anti ship missiles and can sweep the bay of Biscay in hours to find the fleet without sing Satellites. And the Navy is armed with the latest Torpedoes and Anti Ship Missiles.


    Gone are the days of fleets bobbing around in the Ocean hoping to find each other and firing broadsides at each other. It's a lot more clinical these days and has been for some time.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    And it would still be over in hours as the RAF is armed with the latest anti ship missiles and can sweep the bay of Biscay in hours to find the fleet without sing Satellites. And the Navy is armed with the latest Torpedoes and Anti Ship Missiles.


    Gone are the days of fleets bobbing around in the Ocean hoping to find each other and firing broadsides at each other. It's a lot more clinical these days and has been for some time.
    Man I play too much Empire: Total War. I think of a war between Britain and Spain and I can't help thinking of Ships of the Line, broadsides, muskets and sabres lol. In all seriousness you're right, Spain would be toasted by the RAF before the Royal Navy even got there.
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    No it should not. It will blow over in time - the UK did the right thing by refering the dispute to the European Union.

    The Spanish government uses the Gibraltar issue to distract public opinion at home when it suits them politically (like Argentina and the Falklands). The Spanish government is under massive pressure after the public outrage caused by their corruption scandal revelations, predictably pointing to Gibraltar to try and distract the population.

    By being "tougher" the UK government will play right into the desperate Spanish government's hands and strengthen it. There's nothing the Spanish can do about it anyway, so literally twiddling thumbs until it blows over is the best course of action.
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    the english want gibraltar but want anjem choudhry to have sharia with no compaints. wierd.
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    Nice to know we have the EU backing in this. -_-
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    yes.
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    (Original post by peter12345)
    Why? It would just start a war and then the King of Spain would send another Armada at us. Is that what you want?
    We have nukes, they do not. **** them, shell them, protect our citizens.

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