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    Hi All

    It has been suggested that I and a few others create a new forum for the QTS tests so here goes. If you have been reading the thread QTS tests (required for entry for all teaching courses 2013) you will get the gist of it, if not read on .

    This is for example for:

    Students/parents appealing Government decision regarding changes involving students of 2012 caught in the transition.

    Students who have failed at their 3rd attempt

    The possibility of discrimination against students studying in England

    Endless others.

    I'll start off to give you a rough idea of where I am coming from. (For those of you that have not read the posts - apologies to those who have)
    My daughter failed her numeracy at the 3rd attempt a couple of weeks ago. The knock on effect it has had for her up to now is, she is due to start her 3rd year of a 4 year course in Primary Teaching with SEN. Having given up a full time well paid job in an inner city school supporting visually impaired & students with other SEN. She completed a one year access course to gain her place at University while holding down her job. She is now in a position that she has been "locked out" for 2 years she cannot resit the numeracy until August 2015, her course ends in May 2015. If she graduates she does so without her teaching qualification, and only gains that when she has passed the numeracy skills tests. By that time it will be too late for her to apply for teaching positions for that academic year.

    Although these tests have been around for a while, the changes were only implemented in March 2012. Prior to this students had unlimited chances to take them (as in when you take your driving tests theory & practical)

    We have since been informed that when my daughter started her course it would have been with the understanding that she would have had unlimited chances, as in November 2011 they announced that existing students would not be affected - of which she is one. However she has been locked out, we are in the process of trying to get that overturned.

    We have been in touch with several related agencies and will continue to do so.

    She is not on her own, if you read the posts on the other thread you will see that many are in the same, similar or even worse (in my opinion).

    Myself and others are trying to enforce changes ourselves. The icing on the cake would be to have the tests abolished (but doubt this will happen under this Government - Gove's way or no way!!) but, if we could at least get the 2 year lock out clause removed that would be brilliant.

    Come and join us, lets all be heard and support each other, let's not go away quietly!

    Along with our own ,we will help you as much as we can - no matter what.

    Look forward to hearing from you!
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    New thread bookmarked!
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    (Original post by Blue54)
    Hi All

    It has been suggested that I and a few others create a new forum for the QTS tests so here goes. If you have been reading the thread QTS tests (required for entry for all teaching courses 2013) you will get the gist of it, if not read on .

    This is for example for:

    Students/parents appealing Government decision regarding changes involving students of 2012 caught in the transition.

    Students who have failed at their 3rd attempt

    The possibility of discrimination against students studying in England

    Endless others.

    I'll start off to give you a rough idea of where I am coming from. (For those of you that have not read the posts - apologies to those who have)
    My daughter failed her numeracy at the 3rd attempt a couple of weeks ago. The knock on effect it has had for her up to now is, she is due to start her 3rd year of a 4 year course in Primary Teaching with SEN. Having given up a full time well paid job in an inner city school supporting visually impaired & students with other SEN. She completed a one year access course to gain her place at University while holding down her job. She is now in a position that she has been "locked out" for 2 years she cannot resit the numeracy until August 2015, her course ends in May 2015. If she graduates she does so without her teaching qualification, and only gains that when she has passed the numeracy skills tests. By that time it will be too late for her to apply for teaching positions for that academic year.

    Although these tests have been around for a while, the changes were only implemented in March 2012. Prior to this students had unlimited chances to take them (as in when you take your driving tests theory & practical)

    We have since been informed that when my daughter started her course it would have been with the understanding that she would have had unlimited chances, as in November 2011 they announced that existing students would not be affected - of which she is one. However she has been locked out, we are in the process of trying to get that overturned.

    We have been in touch with several related agencies and will continue to do so.

    She is not on her own, if you read the posts on the other thread you will see that many are in the same, similar or even worse (in my opinion).

    Myself and others are trying to enforce changes ourselves. The icing on the cake would be to have the tests abolished (but doubt this will happen under this Government - Gove's way or no way!!) but, if we could at least get the 2 year lock out clause removed that would be brilliant.

    Come and join us, lets all be heard and support each other, let's not go away quietly!

    Along with our own ,we will help you as much as we can - no matter what.

    Look forward to hearing from you!
    Yaaayyyy!!!! Go Blue54!!! This is great!

    My daughter is in the position where she has completed her PGCE but because she failed her numeracy by one mark on her third attempt, she has not been awarded QTS and therefore can not teach....she is also in the unfortunate position where she is locked out for two years from applying to resit her numeracy!..................CRAZY !!!!!!!

    I am all for battling on with this appeal and will hope that we can at least have the two year lock out scrapped!!
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    Someone said somewhere to move the GCSE requirement up to a B.

    I think that's ridiculously unfair. A C grade is considered good standard so above that is going up to very good and excellent. A lot of people, like myself have struggled with maths, and I think it's a bit unfair to have standards above good at exams people take when they're only 16 (or even younger).

    I made many mistakes during my GCSE's as well as A-levels (as others will have done too) and feel held back by them as it is, without any chance of improving it, nobody has the money exams cost to fix those things. I'm already struggling to fund a gap year to gain experience to get on a course, other people will also have kids to look after and homes to pay for.

    Many peoples abilities (for maths and to revise and study harder) will have changed, but these grades do not reflect the ability of the student at all, they reflect us when we took our GCSE's.

    It's a bit harsh holding not getting B grade at 16 against someone when they were told at the time a C would be a decent enough grade to not hold them back. It was always emphasised that getting a grade C or above was respectable.

    I think at least if you want to introduce that rule, it should be that people with a B don't need to take the test but those that don't hold a B grade should take the test. At least then we are being open to many excellent teachers and not just shutting doors on the basis that someone didn't get the right grades 7 years ago.
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    Although I understand the purpose of the skills tests and therefore don't believe they should be abolished, I think the timing aspect of the mental math numeracy should be changed.

    (apologies for those who've already read my position on the previous forum) ... I'm a mature student with a 1st class degree in Computer Science. I have passed the Uni's math equivalency exam. After a gruelling 2 part interview process, I have been recommended for a £20k scholarship from the British Computer Society. I failed my 3rd attempt at the numeracy test by 2 marks due to nerves, not due to a lack of numeracy ability.

    The Uni has suggested I fight this through my local MP which I certainly will do and to kick up a fuss wherever I can.

    It may be too late for me but I intend to fight for the cause of future PGCE students ...
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    I am a retired teacher of 37 years and my daughter starts her PGCE on Monday. I completely understand the anguish these tests have caused. My daughter failed her literacy twice by one mark each time and was about to give up!! As parents we feel their frustration and more importantly keep an eye on their mental health during such stressful times! To deny someone their QTS status because they haven't passed these tests is completely unfair. These students have proved themselves during their teaching practices to be worthy of qualification. My heart goes out to them and I strongly support any campaign to abolish these tests. I'm pleased that my daughter wont have to do them during her PGCE year. There has been far too much government interference in education over the years! I was able to sign the e petition and will be lobbying my MP about the inequality and discrimination these tests have created ( not necessary in Wales etc.) Good luck to everyone and well done to those of you pursuing your universities to have your teaching status upheld.
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    (Original post by juneat4)
    Although I understand the purpose of the skills tests and therefore don't believe they should be abolished, I think the timing aspect of the mental math numeracy should be changed.

    (apologies for those who've already read my position on the previous forum) ... I'm a mature student with a 1st class degree in Computer Science. I have passed the Uni's math equivalency exam. After a gruelling 2 part interview process, I have been recommended for a £20k scholarship from the British Computer Society. I failed my 3rd attempt at the numeracy test by 2 marks due to nerves, not due to a lack of numeracy ability.

    The Uni has suggested I fight this through my local MP which I certainly will do and to kick up a fuss wherever I can.

    It may be too late for me but I intend to fight for the cause of future PGCE students ...
    Good June.....don't give up the fight! Hopefully together we can make a difference!

    How did you get on with the Uni when you talked to them about the numeracy? Hope they were sympathetic. Xx
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    (Original post by neonlj)
    Someone said somewhere to move the GCSE requirement up to a B.

    I think that's ridiculously unfair. A C grade is considered good standard so above that is going up to very good and excellent. A lot of people, like myself have struggled with maths, and I think it's a bit unfair to have standards above good at exams people take when they're only 16 (or even younger).

    I made many mistakes during my GCSE's as well as A-levels (as others will have done too) and feel held back by them as it is, without any chance of improving it, nobody has the money exams cost to fix those things. I'm already struggling to fund a gap year to gain experience to get on a course, other people will also have kids to look after and homes to pay for.

    Many peoples abilities (for maths and to revise and study harder) will have changed, but these grades do not reflect the ability of the student at all, they reflect us when we took our GCSE's.

    It's a bit harsh holding not getting B grade at 16 against someone when they were told at the time a C would be a decent enough grade to not hold them back. It was always emphasised that getting a grade C or above was respectable.

    I think at least if you want to introduce that rule, it should be that people with a B don't need to take the test but those that don't hold a B grade should take the test. At least then we are being open to many excellent teachers and not just shutting doors on the basis that someone didn't get the right grades 7 years ago.
    Neonlj....I think if they were to increase the entrance requirements from a C to a B, we would really hope they would then drop the skills tests.... But I have a feeling these tests will be around for a while!
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    (Original post by LEENAS)
    I am a retired teacher of 37 years and my daughter starts her PGCE on Monday. I completely understand the anguish these tests have caused. My daughter failed her literacy twice by one mark each time and was about to give up!! As parents we feel their frustration and more importantly keep an eye on their mental health during such stressful times! To deny someone their QTS status because they haven't passed these tests is completely unfair. These students have proved themselves during their teaching practices to be worthy of qualification. My heart goes out to them and I strongly support any campaign to abolish these tests. I'm pleased that my daughter wont have to do them during her PGCE year. There has been far too much government interference in education over the years! I was able to sign the e petition and will be lobbying my MP about the inequality and discrimination these tests have created ( not necessary in Wales etc.) Good luck to everyone and well done to those of you pursuing your universities to have your teaching status upheld.
    Hi Leenas. Nice to have your support!
    My daughter is in that very position where she has completed her training(PGCE)and passed everything except for her numeracy skills and now QTS is denied......so very unfair!! She even had supply work for Sept in the primary school where she passed her final teaching placement and has had to turn it down due to having no QTS!!
    Is your daughter starting her PGCE soon?.... I hope she is successful with the skills tests.....I know it was nerves and the time factor got my daughter, not to mention the pressure of what all was at stake as she had her training finished
    I wish your daughter all the best and am delighted that you are prepared to push this issue with your MP.....thank you x
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    Sorry Leenas, I see your daughter is starting Monday so must have passed her skills tests.... Thats brilliant, delighted for her!!
    Xx
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    (Original post by anniel4)
    Neonlj....I think if they were to increase the entrance requirements from a C to a B, we would really hope they would then drop the skills tests.... But I have a feeling these tests will be around for a while!
    My suspicions are that this would block even more people from joining course and I also think it is unfair to judge peoples skills on tests they will have done a minimum of 7 years prior., especially in the case of subject they didn't intend to teach or study further. If they have a C grade that was deemed "good" at the time and teachers pretty much emphasised this is what employers and courses look for, this is what they will have worked towards. To change the goalposts 7 years later is just horrible.

    If we're going to make changes, we have to make sure they are accommodating to people who have achieved requirements when they were taking these courses.

    You'd be changing one unfair situation to another.
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    (Original post by anniel4)
    Good June.....don't give up the fight! Hopefully together we can make a difference!

    How did you get on with the Uni when you talked to them about the numeracy? Hope they were sympathetic. Xx
    They are devastated for me and full of sympathy.
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    Hellllooooo! Phew thank god it came on! I didn't know if I had done it properly! So glad we've got it going. Apologies for me only just logging in, but first day back at work, just one thing needs to happen and it sets you back a couple of hours.

    My daughter & I are going to meet with our MP on Friday evening, and I will be well armed with a host of points for her to look into and hopefully help us. Again even if not by getting these abolished altogether, then at least the 2 year lock out being lifted.

    My daughters case is slightly different to Anniel4 & Juneat4, as in this has happened right smack bang in the middle of her course, but our cases all add up to the same outcome.

    We have emailed lots of people between us, and on our personal levels away from the forum, doing as much as we can to be heard.

    Please join us, keep the posts coming, sign the petition, strength in numbers and all that! Day one of our thread - Fab!
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    (Original post by neonlj)
    My suspicions are that this would block even more people from joining course and I also think it is unfair to judge peoples skills on tests they will have done a minimum of 7 years prior., especially in the case of subject they didn't intend to teach or study further. If they have a C grade that was deemed "good" at the time and teachers pretty much emphasised this is what employers and courses look for, this is what they will have worked towards. To change the goalposts 7 years later is just horrible.

    If we're going to make changes, we have to make sure they are accommodating to people who have achieved requirements when they were taking these courses.

    You'd be changing one unfair situation to another.
    Hi Neonly

    I'm a bit confused about your thread, do I take it that you would rather the QTS tests stay in place and the same rules apply?
    The tests are going to be harder next year without whatever input we have, that has always been on the cards. However the goalposts had already been moved for this years GCSE grades - and not that long ago. So Y11 students this year who had been predicted say a B only got a C. So it goes on and on, and this government have not thought this process or the numeracy & literacy tests through properly The effect this was having on some of my students a few weeks ago when they opened their results was heart breaking

    Mr Gove wants it everyway, and there's no fairness in that.

    Again though we on here will help you as much as possible xxx
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    (Original post by juneat4)
    Although I understand the purpose of the skills tests and therefore don't believe they should be abolished, I think the timing aspect of the mental math numeracy should be changed.

    (apologies for those who've already read my position on the previous forum) ... I'm a mature student with a 1st class degree in Computer Science. I have passed the Uni's math equivalency exam. After a gruelling 2 part interview process, I have been recommended for a £20k scholarship from the British Computer Society. I failed my 3rd attempt at the numeracy test by 2 marks due to nerves, not due to a lack of numeracy ability.

    The Uni has suggested I fight this through my local MP which I certainly will do and to kick up a fuss wherever I can.

    It may be too late for me but I intend to fight for the cause of future PGCE students ...
    Hi Juneat4

    All these stories are so upsetting. Although I don't agree with these tests I obviously respect your opinion. I don't know what relevance they have of say a student embarking on a history, geography rs, art course ,all the subjects that do not require you to teach Maths & English
    Don't give up June - the majority of us all seem to be getting the same advice as to go through our MP and it might not be too late for you, and hopefully definitely not to late for future PGCE students.

    Keep smiling June xxx
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    (Original post by anniel4)
    Hi Leenas. Nice to have your support!
    My daughter is in that very position where she has completed her training(PGCE)and passed everything except for her numeracy skills and now QTS is denied......so very unfair!! She even had supply work for Sept in the primary school where she passed her final teaching placement and has had to turn it down due to having no QTS!!
    Is your daughter starting her PGCE soon?.... I hope she is successful with the skills tests.....I know it was nerves and the time factor got my daughter, not to mention the pressure of what all was at stake as she had her training finished
    I wish your daughter all the best and am delighted that you are prepared to push this issue with your MP.....thank you x
    (Original post by LEENAS)
    I am a retired teacher of 37 years and my daughter starts her PGCE on Monday. I completely understand the anguish these tests have caused. My daughter failed her literacy twice by one mark each time and was about to give up!! As parents we feel their frustration and more importantly keep an eye on their mental health during such stressful times! To deny someone their QTS status because they haven't passed these tests is completely unfair. These students have proved themselves during their teaching practices to be worthy of qualification. My heart goes out to them and I strongly support any campaign to abolish these tests. I'm pleased that my daughter wont have to do them during her PGCE year. There has been far too much government interference in education over the years! I was able to sign the e petition and will be lobbying my MP about the inequality and discrimination these tests have created ( not necessary in Wales etc.) Good luck to everyone and well done to those of you pursuing your universities to have your teaching status upheld.
    Hi leenas

    Thanks for you support, I echo everything you have said, and you have raised some valuable points. I will be adding them to my list!

    I also wish your daughter all the very best to her for the future.

    But please stay with us on this, your opinion is very valuable.xxxx
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    I'm afraid I am going to be controversial here. The hard truth is that these tests are easy. That they may be failed once, perhaps due to nerves, is forgiveable. That they are failed three times is not.

    We cannot have teachers without good numeracy and literacy levels. Even if your daughters are intending to teach history, geography or art, a good standard of both written and spoken English is essential. We, the educational professionals, are already subject to intolerable pressure and scrutiny from government; why add to that by admitting new teachers who cannot communicate adequately? It only strengthens Mr Gove's position.

    Of course I am sorry that your children haven't succeeded but being passionate about teaching just isn't enough. Teachers expect their students to put the work in - they need to do the same if they hope to teach.
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    The tests are supposed to be moving up to grade B standard anyway. So if you got a C on a foundation paper, there's probably a lot you wouldn't have known in the first place anyway.

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    I intend no personal disrespect to anyone, and I write this knowing that I will get my head in my hands to play with, but some of the contributors to this thread need a reality check.

    If you can't pass the numeracy and literacy tests at the third attempt, never mind the first or second, then you have no business being in a classroom. The standard of both these tests is well within the scope of a 16 year old GCSE student, and an intelligent graduate should have no problems with either of them.

    The fact that people are expecting to fail these tests repeatedly but still achieve QTS explains a lot about what is wrong with our educational system.

    And just for the record, I am a lifelong libertarian socialist, a proponent of state education who taught in comprehensive schools for thirty years and now work as a principal examiner, team leader and assistant examiner for three examination boards, so I know what I am talking about.

    Parents have a right to expect their children to be taught by people with sound numeracy and literacy skills whatever the actual subject being taught. And no matter how passionate, well-meaning and committed to the idea of teaching someone may be, if they fail these tests repeatedly then I don't want them teaching my children and grandchildren.
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    (Original post by Geordie1944)
    I intend no personal disrespect to anyone, and I write this knowing that I will get my head in my hands to play with, but some of the contributors to this thread need a reality check.

    If you can't pass the numeracy and literacy tests at the third attempt, never mind the first or second, then you have no business being in a classroom. The standard of both these tests is well within the scope of a 16 year old GCSE student, and an intelligent graduate should have no problems with either of them.

    The fact that people are expecting to fail these tests repeatedly but still achieve QTS explains a lot about what is wrong with our educational system.

    And just for the record, I am a lifelong libertarian socialist, a proponent of state education who taught in comprehensive schools for thirty years and now work as a principal examiner, team leader and assistant examiner for three examination boards, so I know what I am talking about.

    Parents have a right to expect their children to be taught by people with sound numeracy and literacy skills whatever the actual subject being taught. And no matter how passionate, well-meaning and committed to the idea of teaching someone may be, if they fail these tests repeatedly then I don't want them teaching my children and grandchildren.
    Have you actually sat these skills tests?? (Just curious as you seem to "know what you are talkng about)
    What if your children/grandchildren were being taught by a teacher who qualified in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, where QTS(skills tests)don't exist.....would you want them to teach them??? Because this is where Gove contradicts himself regarding QTS!
 
 
 
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