Why do anti-feminists think that feminists don't care about men? Watch

chocolateorange111
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Whenever I see a feminism based argument on here, one repeated argument from the anti-feminists is that feminists don't want equality, they actually want women to have more rights than men because otherwise they would call it 'humanism' and be campaigning for rights for everyone, for example where men are discriminated against.

As a strong feminist, this upsets me because I do genuinely care about discrimination against men. I have lots of male friends and it upsets me when they are prejudiced against for being guys just as I am prejudiced against for being female.

Examples:
Car insurance for boys is always so much higher
Girls getting into clubs for free
For older men, the rights to custody etc
My male friend wants to be a primary school teacher but is scared he'll get labelled as a paedophile.

Those are just a few and I'm sure there are plenty more.

Basically what I'm trying to say is anti-feminists seem to get very angry when feminists talk about how women are disadvantaged. It's not that feminists don't care about men's rights, it's just that most feminists are women and so they are more affected by the women's problems. If some men started a campaign for their problems, most women would be totally behind them and agree. But very few campaigns have been started. The best one is the Everyday Sexism Project which looks at prejudice of both men and women.

So to all the anti-feminists who think men have it just as bad, why don't you put effort into campaigning against it rather than having a go at feminists?
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The Angry Stoic
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My main gripe with Western feminists is they spend so much time banging on about things like 'sexist video games' and 'rape encouraging songs' or 'sexist lingual terms like mankind' when there is such a real need for feminists in other places around the world to stop things like underage or forced marriage, FGT, women being forced or brainwashed into being second class citizens and real rape cultures and victim blaming like in India or most of the Middle East.

And still worse some of those practices are moving over to the UK. Why are feminist oh so quite about the rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture and religious customs? Where are you girls?

Did I just mix a Islam and feminism on a thread? This will get heated :sexface:
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forgetamine
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
And still worse some of those practices are moving over to the UK. Why are feminist oh so quite about the rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture and religious customs? Where are you girls?

Did I just mix a Islam and feminism on a thread? This will get heated :sexface:
Because if you criticise Islam you immediately get terms thrown at you like 'racist' and 'islamophobe'. On TSR and in real life.
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by forgetamine)
Because if you criticise Islam you immediately get terms thrown at you like 'racist' and 'islamophobe'. On TSR and in real life.
Then those boundaries need to be thrown down. I'm looking at you ladies

I don't think feminists go after Islam as they see both women and Muslims as victims of the 'white male establishment'. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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nicatre
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I think it's a combination of:
A) The rampant, man-hating, millitant feminazis are usually the most out-spoken thus (as with any social group) the loudest create the prejudice for the majority)
B) What The Angry Stoic said regarding the focus on minor details which can realistically be ignored if undesired compared with tackling real and wider issues in other places.
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Antifazian
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
My main gripe with Western feminists is they spend so much time banging on about things like 'sexist video games' and 'rape encouraging songs' or 'sexist lingual terms like mankind' when there is such a real need for feminists in other places around the world to stop things like underage or forced marriage, FGT, women being forced or brainwashed into being second class citizens and real rape cultures and victim blaming like in India or most of the Middle East.

And still worse some of those practices are moving over to the UK. Why are feminist oh so quite about the rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture and religious customs? Where are you girls?

Did I just mix a Islam and feminism on a thread? This will get heated :sexface:
When Western (read typically white, middle class) feminist academics from american unis suggested a set of ways of targeting sexism and rape in India following the apparent surge of high-profile rape cases over there, Indian feminists sent back a sarcastic reply stating that they thanked the women for their suggestions, and obviously had no idea how to tackle problems in their own countries.

What business does a western women have attempting to pass judgement on issues in other religions/cultures if she is not a part of them, nor really knows much about them? That's a very colonial attitude, suggesting that we can go in and tell other countries or cultures how to solve their problems, especially when there are feminists in those countries already tackling these issues themselves. Feminism is not restricted to the west!

To illustrate this point, although not strictly about the particular issues you mentioned, this article shows why it's so dangerous of us to assume we know what's bad and have all the answers when it comes to other countries - http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.p...=9780674725164

There is a body of black feminist literature deriding western feminists of the second wave for their assumptions and basically racism, in believing that they spoke for all women everywhere, whereas in the third wave feminism as a movement is more conscious of not doing this, and of acknowledging the subjectivity and contradictions inherent in the movement and in women's lives.

There are groups, charities, organisations and initiatives in other countries working on all of the issues you've mentioned, you just don't here about them in our media.

Furthermore western feminists do indeed do things to help with these issues, again you just don't here about them and so assume they don't go on. Do a search for Womankind worldwide for example, a charity I support as a western feminist who apparently just spends all my time moaning about inconsequential issues...

It is also very problematic for you to state that some issues are 'real' or more deserving of feminist efforts than others, because they are ultimately all issues that effect women. If everyone thought that way, no one would ever have come up with a way soothe a sore throat or get rid of spots because we'd all be solely focused on finding cancer cures or tackling HIV which are obviously much bigger issues. We fight for the issues that matter to us and those around us, or those issues which we feel most strongly about and have the knowledge to fight for.

The word 'feminists' is so often used as an all-encompassing, catch-all category that can be used to say 'feminists do this', or 'feminists say this' when in fact feminism is an incredibly diverse, multicultural, multi-faceted and at times contradictory movement involving people with their own aims, problems, focuses, backgrounds, priorities etc. It is not a singularly-focused group of people that you can lump together as anti-feminists are so fond of doing.

I also think you are completely underestimating the power that 'rape encouraging songs' and the language we use with regards to women and relationships actually have on people's attitudes and so their behavior - this isn't trivial!
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by Antifazian)
When Western (read typically white, middle class) feminist academics from american unis suggested a set of ways of targeting sexism and rape in India following the apparent surge of high-profile rape cases over there, Indian feminists sent back a sarcastic reply stating that they thanked the women for their suggestions, and obviously had no idea how to tackle problems in their own countries.

What business does a western women have attempting to pass judgement on issues in other religions/cultures if she is not a part of them, nor really knows much about them? That's a very colonial attitude, suggesting that we can go in and tell other countries or cultures how to solve their problems, especially when there are feminists in those countries already tackling these issues themselves. Feminism is not restricted to the west!

To illustrate this point, although not strictly about the particular issues you mentioned, this article shows why it's so dangerous of us to assume we know what's bad and have all the answers when it comes to other countries - http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.p...=9780674725164

There is a body of black feminist literature deriding western feminists of the second wave for their assumptions and basically racism, in believing that they spoke for all women everywhere, whereas in the third wave feminism as a movement is more conscious of not doing this, and of acknowledging the subjectivity and contradictions inherent in the movement and in women's lives.

There are groups, charities, organisations and initiatives in other countries working on all of the issues you've mentioned, you just don't here about them in our media.

Furthermore western feminists do indeed do things to help with these issues, again you just don't here about them and so assume they don't go on. Do a search for Womankind worldwide for example, a charity I support as a western feminist who apparently just spends all my time moaning about inconsequential issues...

It is also very problematic for you to state that some issues are 'real' or more deserving of feminist efforts than others, because they are ultimately all issues that effect women. If everyone thought that way, no one would ever have come up with a way soothe a sore throat or get rid of spots because we'd all be solely focused on finding cancer cures or tackling HIV which are obviously much bigger issues. We fight for the issues that matter to us and those around us, or those issues which we feel most strongly about and have the knowledge to fight for.

The word 'feminists' is so often used as an all-encompassing, catch-all category that can be used to say 'feminists do this', or 'feminists say this' when in fact feminism is an incredibly diverse, multicultural, multi-faceted and at times contradictory movement involving people with their own aims, problems, focuses, backgrounds, priorities etc. It is not a singularly-focused group of people that you can lump together as anti-feminists are so fond of doing.

I also think you are completely underestimating the power that 'rape encouraging songs' and the language we use with regards to women and relationships actually have on people's attitudes and so their behavior - this isn't trivial!
Lets just not worry about it then. If it happens in other countries its not our problem? That will make the world a better place.

And what about talking those issues over here?

We can't fight genital mutilation just in the UK if we are having immigrants coming in who still think its ok. We've got to kill it in the source.
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GrumpyCat
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Because you keep trying to censor things because you *think* by listening to a song or seeing naked women, men just lose control.
Perhaps shows such as the Simpsons, with the main male role being a stupid incompetent father cause boys to be stupid and incompetent. Let mass censoring ensue!

Also one more thing, I really don't think the car insurance charging more to men was sexist. Young men crash more.
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Antifazian
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Lets just not worry about it then. If it happens in other countries its not our problem? That will make the world a better place.

And what about talking those issues over here?

We can't fight genital mutilation just in the UK if we are having immigrants coming in who still think its ok. We've got to kill it in the source.
You must have missed the part where I said that feminists are dealing with these issues, both western and otherwise, and gave an example of it. :confused:

All I did was show the errors in your way of thinking, in assuming that the west knows best when it comes to sorting out problems in other cultures, I didn't say that these problems aren't important and don't need sorting, and I even said that I was doing something to sort them myself, so your reply makes no sense.
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Kiss
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(Original post by chocolateorange111)
Whenever I see a feminism based argument on here, one repeated argument from the anti-feminists is that feminists don't want equality, they actually want women to have more rights than men because otherwise they would call it 'humanism' and be campaigning for rights for everyone, for example where men are discriminated against.

As a strong feminist, this upsets me because I do genuinely care about discrimination against men. I have lots of male friends and it upsets me when they are prejudiced against for being guys just as I am prejudiced against for being female.
That sums up your problem then and there.

Examples:
Car insurance for boys is always so much higher
Girls getting into clubs for free
For older men, the rights to custody etc
My male friend wants to be a primary school teacher but is scared he'll get labelled as a paedophile.

Those are just a few and I'm sure there are plenty more.
I don't see feminists complaining about these at all.......

Basically what I'm trying to say is anti-feminists seem to get very angry when feminists talk about how women are disadvantaged. It's not that feminists don't care about men's rights, it's just that most feminists are women and so they are more affected by the women's problems. If some men started a campaign for their problems, most women would be totally behind them and agree. But very few campaigns have been started. The best one is the Everyday Sexism Project which looks at prejudice of both men and women.
Of course anti-feminists accept that, but feminism has lost any credibility it once had in light of morons who want to ban songs/words/tv shows which may offend women, in spite of not speaking for all women, hence why many women are against feminism. You need to understand that feminism does not mean men versus women, feminism is an ideology which favours women. The Everyday Sexism Project explicitly states that it focuses on the issues of women, not men. I made a thread on it where you can see why it is so ridiculous and gives feminism a bad name:

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=2445286

So to all the anti-feminists who think men have it just as bad, why don't you put effort into campaigning against it rather than having a go at feminists?
Because whenever men do take action they get shouted down by feminist groups. Look at MRAs when they protest - feminists just call them sexist and dismiss their argument. Feminism doesn't necessarily not care about men, but it's too selfish and self-righteous to work together with men on issues which affect them without changing the name of 'feminism'. The only time when men and women have worked together for equal rights without taking a bias on either side comes through Egalitarianism, and even then some feminists decry this movement as not being enough. Feminism now has been reduced to an uncollected, uncollated movement going in five directions at once, whilst the main problems it fights for, genuine problems which I would care to see changed, are ignored in light of idiots like this:



Radical feminism and western feminism killed anything worthwhile about the ethos of feminist dogma. Now it concerns itself more with banning Robin Thicke from nightclubs than it does about women being beaten in 3rd world countries.
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shadowdweller
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(Original post by Kiss)
I don't see feminists complaining about these at all.......
Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Posted from TSR Mobile
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Dandaman1
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Feminism, by definition, concerns itself with female issues. If feminists want to deal with male issues too, they are welcome to upgrade to egalitarianism.

Part of the problem is that feminism causes a lot of these male issues. The rights and opportunities of men are being compromised to make way for women who need that 'helping hand'. I would even go as far to say that it's actually more advantageous to be a women at this time (in the West, anyway) as the government will care a lot more about your well-being, for one. Here in Canada, even though women under 30 actually earn 8% more than their male counterparts, the government, educational and private institutions still feel it is necessary to offer more exclusive social programs, scholarships and other handouts to young women every darn year, and the feminists still protest on the streets about wage gaps as though it's 1965.

But, of course, to point out that feminism is now giving women an unfair, undeserved advantage is blasphemy in the eyes of feminists and the 'politically correct'. There's already one holding a sign outside my house.
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Octohedral
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Then those boundaries need to be thrown down. I'm looking at you ladies

I don't think feminists go after Islam as they see both women and Muslims as victims of the 'white male establishment'. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
That may be true in some cases. I'm sure there's plenty of prejudice against the 'white male establishment'.

However, there's no single 'feminist' movement. Nobody intelligent thinks the enemy of their enemy is auutomatically their friend, and even if they did it would be far more likely to mean white males are our friends, because they are the enemies (in simplistic terms) of certain cultures related to Islam that suppress women.

Anti-feminism concerns me, not because I think it's always wrong, but because it is potentially something of a self fulfilling prophecy, and could do a lot of damage. In the past women were primarily uneducated, and didn't work. Equality is young, and there are various lingering stereotypes that produce nothing but hatred in both sides, (my favourite is "you were never forced to die in a war", said by a teenage boy who's never been near a war).

For the sake of both men and women, I think we need to drop feminism altogether in favour of a label reflecting equality and humanism. There is no need for there even to be a gender boundary in this issue.
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by Octohedral)
That may be true in some cases. I'm sure there's plenty of prejudice against the 'white male establishment'.

However, there's no single 'feminist' movement. Nobody intelligent thinks the enemy of their enemy is auutomatically their friend, and even if they did it would be far more likely to mean white males are our friends, because they are the enemies (in simplistic terms) of certain cultures related to Islam that suppress women.

Anti-feminism concerns me, not because I think it's always wrong, but because it is potentially something of a self fulfilling prophecy, and could do a lot of damage. In the past women were primarily uneducated, and didn't work. Equality is young, and there are various lingering stereotypes that produce nothing but hatred in both sides, (my favourite is "you were never forced to die in a war", said by a teenage boy who's never been near a war).

For the sake of both men and women, I think we need to drop feminism altogether in favour of a label reflecting equality and humanism. There is no need for there even to be a gender boundary in this issue.
Indeed.

Give me liberty, equality and brotherhood or give me death!

Or should that be siblinghood?
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Robbie242
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Because quite a number of them are female supremacists who get the most of the media spotlight for constantly blaming men; this perception combined with the Feminist ideology concerns only women's rights.

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

A Feminist is a person who supports feminism.

2+2=4

People who define themselves as feminists only care about women's rights
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Octohedral
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Indeed.

Give me liberty, equality and brotherhood or give me death!

Or should that be siblinghood?
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Seb.
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It's very admirable that you care about men's rights as well, but most feminists don't.
Just look at the largest feminist movements. When have they ever done something that supports male rights?

Actually, the definition of feminism doesn't even involve men's rights. That's why it is called feminism.

And thus, I guess that thus the feminist movement doesn't even have the obligation to care for men's rights.

But they really should start concentrating on actual, serious issues rather than "songs promoting rape culture" and "sexist video games".
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Darien
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(Original post by chocolateorange111)
Whenever I see a feminism based argument on here, one repeated argument from the anti-feminists is that feminists don't want equality, they actually want women to have more rights than men because otherwise they would call it 'humanism' and be campaigning for rights for everyone, for example where men are discriminated against.
Well, that is one reason to be anti-feminist certainly. Feminism is - at best - about "obtaining rights for women" and at worst it is about the destruction of men and masculinity. You can check that out as a fact by looking for what feminist organisations declare as their purpose (most of them are on the Internet, so the research is not hard).

(Original post by chocolateorange111)
As a strong feminist, this upsets me because I do genuinely care about discrimination against men. I have lots of male friends and it upsets me when they are prejudiced against for being guys just as I am prejudiced against for being female.
So what makes you self-describe yourself as a 'strong feminist' since this is not what feminism is about? I understand it might be what you would like feminism to be about but it isn't.

You sound more like an egalitarian, to me. Perhaps you should check out egalitarian groups and align yourselves with equality if that is what you believe in.

(Original post by chocolateorange111)
Examples:
Car insurance for boys is always so much higher
Girls getting into clubs for free
For older men, the rights to custody etc
My male friend wants to be a primary school teacher but is scared he'll get labelled as a paedophile.

Those are just a few and I'm sure there are plenty more.
Yes, there are many more. In the UK there is no legal discrimination against women but there is legal discrimination against men.

There may be some social prejudices against you for being female by some men and women but there is nothing inherent in our society to reinforce these prejudices. To the contrary, there are many prejudices to support prejudice in your favour as a woman. Meanwhile, please bear in mind that there is inherent prejudice against males, including statutory law that discriminates against men.

(Original post by chocolateorange111)
Basically what I'm trying to say is anti-feminists seem to get very angry when feminists talk about how women are disadvantaged.
On the whole that's not accurate, though close. Feminists can talk all they like between themselves about perceived disadvantages but if they want anyone else to listen, they should back up what they say with fact (and I'm not including biased 'studies' of pre-selected groups to 'prove' some research).

When feminists keep spouting the same old rubbish over and over again (e.g. "women have been oppressed for 500/2000/many thousands of years", "women get paid less than men") or make the same sexist misandric statements (e.g. "women didn't have the vote for thousands of years [nor did men], "women are victims of domestic violence" [so are men]) then they need to be silenced.

Our society is, and has been for at least 700 years, focused around the needs of women (and children). We are so emotionally inclined to care more about women than men, that men are now second-class citizens in this country. However, we are supposed to have 'equality' and when feminists keep making emotional appeals based on no data, faulty data or data that applies to society as a whole but is emphasised only for women, then there is a problem for men. That is when decent, thinking men and women oppose feminism and support equality.

(Original post by chocolateorange111)
If some men started a campaign for their problems, most women would be totally behind them and agree. But very few campaigns have been started. The best one is the Everyday Sexism Project which looks at prejudice of both men and women.
The anti-feminists, the egalitarians, the men's rights movement, the father's and children's movement all campaign for equality, for fairness, for men's rights, for the rights of fathers, children AND women & mothers.

A few women support these campaigns, especially the egalitarians. Mostly it is left to men who are willing to buck the trend and ignore propaganda to fight for men's rights.

Without men, the chartists and suffragettes would not have won the right to vote that was granted to men a few years before them. Without men, the Women's Liberation Movement would not have gained the laws on equal pay and conditions in the 1970s that has ensured women have the same pay as men. The feminist movement has done little for women but what it has done, it has done with a lot of male help.

Males need help now. They need support in schools and colleges; they need help to get equality under the law; they need the right of equal representation in parliament; they need to be granted the human right of promotion by merit and not have their gonads against them when applying for government grants or local council help on shelter and housing. They need so much more, too, without even discussing things wrong with the media and general attitudes that make men's lives subtly more difficult. Yet where are all the women willing to help men, just as men have helped women so much?

(Original post by chocolateorange111)
So to all the anti-feminists who think men have it just as bad, why don't you put effort into campaigning against it rather than having a go at feminists?
Men do campaign. Why aren't women helping them?

In campaigning for men's human rights and equality, the men's rights movement comes up against feminist opposition time and again. From fair health expenditure (which might reduced the death gap over time) and equal pension time, through to equal suffrage and equal judicial consideration, to equal anonymity between accuser and defender in court and much more, feminists - often backed with tax-payer money - fight the rights of men at every opportunity.

Now do you see why many people fighting for men's rights have to be anti-feminist? They really would rather not waste their time: their is so much work to do, without having to fight off opposing groups.
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Darien
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Why are feminist oh so quite about the rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture and religious customs? Where are you girls?
Some feminists are going on about what you claim is "rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture." That is probably why you believe there is such rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture. However, thousands of British women every year are converting to Islam, so maybe the feminist propaganda about Islam needs examining more closely.

You mentioned India, a country with a population about four times that of the USA. Yet cases of sex-based attacks and sexual assault is about the same in the two countries. That's not defending any types of attacks on anyone: it's just pointing out how the media twists the emphasis to pretend a situation is not quite as they lead you to think.
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by Darien)
Some feminists are going on about what you claim is "rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture." That is probably why you believe there is such rampant misogyny and sexism of Islamic culture. However, thousands of British women every year are converting to Islam, so maybe the feminist propaganda about Islam needs examining more closely.

You mentioned India, a country with a population about four times that of the USA. Yet cases of sex-based attacks and sexual assault is about the same in the two countries. That's not defending any types of attacks on anyone: it's just pointing out how the media twists the emphasis to pretend a situation is not quite as they lead you to think.
Amount of reported attacks.

Who cares who joining Islam? Millions joins Nazism. Does that make it ok? Most women joining Islam in the UK haven't fully explored it properly. Many leave within a year.
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