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This House Believes That Veils Should Be Banned In Hospitals, Courtrooms and Schools

No racist comments please.

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Reply 1
Avatar for zamalekfan
zamalekfan
2
Listen up kid and let me educate you. What does the word freedom mean? You people think you understand everything about this world but you clearly don't. I have no idea where you're from and I don't care but the question you just set is actually pathetic. Let me ask you, how does it feel when someone restricts your freedom and stops you from practicing anything within your rights? A veil is a piece of clothing that is completely harmless. A choice. You have no right in this world to stop someone from doing something that does not harm you or affect you in ANY way possible. I would understand if the veil inflicts damage to you some how or hurts you in a way. Who are you to tell others what they should wear? The western world keeps going on about human rights but in fact as demonstrated by some of your ignorance, you have no understanding of human rights and what it includes. We were all created equal. Children at birth and we all belong in the ground in the end. Who gave you the authority to judge others or force them to do something that would be against their beliefs. They never told you to wear a veil yourself. All they want is the ability to practice their own religion in peace. I honestly don't understand why this is an issue with you people and why your minds can't comprehend the idea of freedom in this situation but you find it easy to accept it in other more absurd times.
Reply 2
Avatar for Goldfly
Goldfly
OP
10
Original post by zamalekfan
Listen up kid and let me educate you. What does the word freedom mean? You people think you understand everything about this world but you clearly don't. I have no idea where you're from and I don't care but the question you just set is actually pathetic. Let me ask you, how does it feel when someone restricts your freedom and stops you from practicing anything within your rights? A veil is a piece of clothing that is completely harmless. A choice. You have no right in this world to stop someone from doing something that does not harm you or affect you in ANY way possible. I would understand if the veil inflicts damage to you some how or hurts you in a way. Who are you to tell others what they should wear? The western world keeps going on about human rights but in fact as demonstrated by some of your ignorance, you have no understanding of human rights and what it includes. We were all created equal. Children at birth and we all belong in the ground in the end. Who gave you the authority to judge others or force them to do something that would be against their beliefs. They never told you to wear a veil yourself. All they want is the ability to practice their own religion in peace. I honestly don't understand why this is an issue with you people and why your minds can't comprehend the idea of freedom in this situation but you find it easy to accept it in other more absurd times.


Hold up there! That is exactly the kind of response I needed! It is for a debate that I am participating in and if it makes you feel any better, I am opposing the motion. I feel very strongly about it and I would like to hear everyone's opinion :smile:
I agree that there are cases in which hiding your face may be a hindrance to certain forms of communication. But I think that going for an outright ban on veils in these places where communication occurs is a taking it a bit too far. The reasoning behind it is often a bit vague and wishy-washy. It's not really enough just to say "The veil hinders communication - You're communicating - Therefore you can't wear a veil". This is a non-sequitur, as the type of communication a person plans to partake in isn't necessarily one which is hindered by the veil.

For example in the news today we've read about hospitals, and how "seeing someone's face when communicating information to patients is an effective and important part of healthcare". Yes, doctors communicate information to patients. Yes, facial expressions are a type of communication. But it doesn't automatically follow from this, that it is only via the medium of facial expressions that doctors are able to convey some of the important medical information to their patients. If my doctor tells me to take my tablets three times a day before meals, I know exactly what he means, and I assume most other people do as well, regardless of what kind of face he's pulling at the time. Personally, I can't think of any circumstances in which being unable to see my doctors face would mean that I would fail to understand the medical advice he intends to impart to me.

In a courtroom situation, when a person is giving evidence, then I can see why there may be a need for them to show their face, because people often need to make judgements on things which are not going to be just stated explicitly - for example, how the person feels about a certain situation, whether or not they're telling the truth etc. But again, I don't think that really calls for an outright ban on veils in court. There's no reason why it can't just be left up to the judge's discretion, to decide whether or not a veil may be worn in any particular session.



Anyway, it seems to me that a lot of people are really trying hard to find a pretext to ban the veil. First of all we had "It's oppressive to women, they're only wearing it because their husbands and fathers force them", and later met outcries from many women who choose to wear it of their own accord. Then we moved onto "It's a security problem, we need to be able to identify you", before realising that banning the veil doesn't really help with that. A person about to rob a bank isn't going to think "Oh no, I can't use a veil to disguise my identity now because that would be illegal!" - the only people affected by a ban would be law-abiders. Now we're on "it hinders communication", without being able to explain why facial expressions are the only type of communication which would do the job sufficiently. I wonder what it will be next. I wonder how long it will be before people just say bluntly, "We're not used to it, it looks a bit scary, it makes us feel uncomfortable because there's an elephant in the room whenever someone wears it".
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 4
Avatar for zamalekfan
zamalekfan
2
Original post by Goldfly
Hold up there! That is exactly the kind of response I needed! It is for a debate that I am participating in and if it makes you feel any better, I am opposing the motion. I feel very strongly about it and I would like to hear everyone's opinion :smile:


Ah my apologies. Please make sure you state your view more clearly next time. I was just getting really tired of the people who keep giving invalid arguments in favour of the ban. Once again I'm sorry for arriving at conclusions.
Reply 5
Avatar for zamalekfan
zamalekfan
2
Original post by Lady Comstock
The key logical flaw in your argument is that the West has never allowed people the unequivocal freedom to wear what they want. If I walked out of my house naked in Britain I would be arrested immediately; furthermore, if I walked out of my house in an SS uniform in Germany I would be arrested immediately.


I understand that the "west" doesn't allow people to wear certain clothes but what does the veil do? Does it represent any political symbols? Does it ruin society? Does it encourage chaos?
Reply 6
Avatar for zamalekfan
zamalekfan
2
In terms of identification or security problems, there is a simple solution. A women wears a veil to cover herself from other men so if at court for example, another women can check her identity in private without having to take off her veil in front of other men.
Reply 7
Avatar for jelly1000
jelly1000
21
Personally I find it creepy only being able to see a persons eyes- for me it looks too much like a criminals mask and I would be unable to trust someone if I couldn't see their face as it helps me to become more familiar with them. I wouldn't support an outright ban though as if they are just walking by on the street they wouldn't be doing any harm to me. I would ask for another doctor though if the first one I saw wore a veil for reasons outlined above.
Original post by jelly1000
Personally I find it creepy only being able to see a persons eyes- for me it looks too much like a criminals mask and I would be unable to trust someone if I couldn't see their face as it helps me to become more familiar with them. I wouldn't support an outright ban though as if they are just walking by on the street they wouldn't be doing any harm to me. I would ask for another doctor though if the first one I saw wore a veil for reasons outlined above.


I agree. In hospitals I feel there should be restrictions upon it as it is not fair that the patient has to ask for another doctor (and thus make themselves worry whether they have crossed some unspoken taboo) when they are probably worried enough.
Original post by zamalekfan
In terms of identification or security problems, there is a simple solution. A women wears a veil to cover herself from other men so if at court for example, another women can check her identity in private without having to take off her veil in front of other men.


The law comes way before religion.
(edited 10 years ago)
I think private buildings should have the right to make people take off their burqas if there is a good reason such as dress code or security however. However banning them outright in certain areas is clearly contary to freedom of belief.
Sounds very sensible. All are environments where it's important and beneficial to be able to see people's faces for reasons of security and practicality and professionalism.
Reply 12
Avatar for Goldfly
Goldfly
OP
10
So has France taken it too far?
Reply 13
Avatar for Saif95
Saif95
12
Original post by Rational Thinker
I agree. In hospitals I feel there should be restrictions upon it as it is not fair that the patient has to ask for another doctor (and thus make themselves worry whether they have crossed some unspoken taboo) when they are probably worried enough.


Are there even veiled doctors around? I've never seen any.
Original post by Goldfly
No racist comments please.


What on earth does anyone's race have to do with veils?
Reply 15
Avatar for Darien
Darien
5
Original post by Lady Comstock
If I walked out of my house naked in Britain I would be arrested immediately; furthermore, if I walked out of my house in an SS uniform in Germany I would be arrested immediately.

Nakedness is not illegal in most parts of the United Kingdom.

Germany's laws against the promotion or acceptance of Nazism do indeed include a prohibition on wearing clothing too closely emulating a member of the Nazi SS. However, that is a very narrow and specifically cultural/historical issue that has little relevance to the discussion.
Reply 16
Avatar for Darien
Darien
5
Original post by jelly1000
Personally I find it creepy only being able to see a persons eyes- for me it looks too much like a criminals mask and I would be unable to trust someone if I couldn't see their face as it helps me to become more familiar with them. I wouldn't support an outright ban though as if they are just walking by on the street they wouldn't be doing any harm to me. I would ask for another doctor though if the first one I saw wore a veil for reasons outlined above.

I think you have it right. Many people in the UK find it 'creepy' or strange and may find trust difficult.

That doesn't imply a need for a legal ban, however.

I remember way back (I'm a 'mature' student) when people started wearing jeans as every-day wear how my mother would tut in disgust and say she'd never talk to anyone who was so <insert various derogation here> to wear denim for street clothing. Just imagine if that had carried through into a ban, just because people felt uncomfortable about jeans. My mother had no problem with me wearing a balaclava to school.

We don't need legal measures. Either people wearing a head-covering like a veil, hoody, niqab or balaclava are socially negated so much that they change what they wear, or people in general society get used to it and it becomes normal.
Original post by zamalekfan
Listen up kid and let me educate you. What does the word freedom mean? You people think you understand everything about this world but you clearly don't. I have no idea where you're from and I don't care but the question you just set is actually pathetic. Let me ask you, how does it feel when someone restricts your freedom and stops you from practicing anything within your rights?


No right is absolute. As it is, they should absolutely be banned in classrooms and courtrooms.

In respect of the latter, it's the height of arrogance to presume to place your superstitious beliefs over the ancient custom of England that justice be done and be seen to be done.
Original post by zamalekfan
In terms of identification or security problems, there is a simple solution. A women wears a veil to cover herself from other men so if at court for example, another women can check her identity in private without having to take off her veil in front of other men.


The judge, jury and counsel have a right to see her face when she gives evidence.

Besides, why is this putative woman so worried about a man seeing her face? What's she worried is going to happen? Will she spontaneously combust?
Original post by MostUncivilised
The judge, jury and counsel have a right to see her face when she gives evidence.

Besides, why is this putative woman so worried about a man seeing her face? What's she worried is going to happen? Will she spontaneously combust?


Firstly, it's ignorant people like you that are always causing an issue. I know that no matter how long I argue with you or how logical my arguments are you won't understand so there's no point. Just leave people be and go care about yourself. If it doesn't affect you in anyway apart from "scaring" you then grow up and mind your own business.

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