Most Intelligent dictators.
Who do you regard as the most intelligent dictator? Personally I would say Joseph Stalin or Franco.
Stalin
Came from absolute poverty with a brute of a father.
Manipulated Lenin into believing he was "that lovely Georgian".
Outplayed all of the Bolsheviks of against each other (Many of the Bolsheviks were exceptionally intelligent people such as Trotsky and Lenin so this is saying something)
Got most of Russia to revere him.
Arguably outsmarted FDR, either that or FDR was just niave about Stalin's true character.
Franco
Worked his way up through Spanish military.
Convinced Germany and Italy to help him in Spanish Civil War
Arguably a military genius
Outsmarted Hitler by not joining in WW2
Kept Spain neutral and was thus Spain was the only Fascist country to profit out of WW2.
Stalin
Came from absolute poverty with a brute of a father.
Manipulated Lenin into believing he was "that lovely Georgian".
Outplayed all of the Bolsheviks of against each other (Many of the Bolsheviks were exceptionally intelligent people such as Trotsky and Lenin so this is saying something)
Got most of Russia to revere him.
Arguably outsmarted FDR, either that or FDR was just niave about Stalin's true character.
Franco
Worked his way up through Spanish military.
Convinced Germany and Italy to help him in Spanish Civil War
Arguably a military genius
Outsmarted Hitler by not joining in WW2
Kept Spain neutral and was thus Spain was the only Fascist country to profit out of WW2.
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Bump,
Hmmm.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CIA support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CIA support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by mevidek
Hmmm.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CSI support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CSI support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
Well said. I would still say Franco though just for his amazing longevity and the fact he is still beloved in parts of Spain.
Definitely Stalin, his tactics in order to succeed Lenin were extremely intelligent...he was certainly devious in a clever way! I think his devious ways were what really showed off his intelligence. Also the way he ensured the likes of Trotsky were removed from pictures he was in with Lenin, and how he placed himself in those pictures. Maybe it was a bit ridiculous, but it shows the length he went to to secure his position as a dictator! 
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Original post by Lucy96
Definitely Stalin, his tactics in order to succeed Lenin were extremely intelligent...he was certainly devious in a clever way! I think his devious ways were what really showed off his intelligence. Also the way he ensured the likes of Trotsky were removed from pictures he was in with Lenin, and how he placed himself in those pictures. Maybe it was a bit ridiculous, but it shows the length he went to to secure his position as a dictator!
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I agree. Stalin did some unpleasant things (some of which are too unpleasant to mention here) but he was definitely a genius and more well read than anyone else in the Bolshevik party other than Lenin and perhaps Trotsky. The only things he did that were foolish was purging his military to the extent that they were severely damaged by the Finish in the Winter War. Nonetheless even Hitler envied Stalin's control over the military.
Original post by Rational Thinker
I agree. Stalin did some unpleasant things (some of which are too unpleasant to mention here) but he was definitely a genius and more well read than anyone else in the Bolshevik party other than Lenin and perhaps Trotsky. The only things he did that were foolish was purging his military to the extent that they were severely damaged by the Finish in the Winter War. Nonetheless even Hitler envied Stalin's control over the military.
I agree! A very sick man indeed. The thing I found most strange about him was that he used to place tomatoes on peoples' chairs in serious meeting etc so that they'd sit on them. It was a strange way of ridiculing them! Yeah definitely, Lenin and Trotsky were so intelligent, I'd love to go back in time and meet them
And yeah that wasn't the best of ideas, he got a bit carried away. I genuinely got upset when I read about how Zinoviev and Kamenev reacted when they were being sentenced to death. Precisely! Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Lucy96
I agree! A very sick man indeed. The thing I found most strange about him was that he used to place tomatoes on peoples' chairs in serious meeting etc so that they'd sit on them. It was a strange way of ridiculing them! Yeah definitely, Lenin and Trotsky were so intelligent, I'd love to go back in time and meet them And yeah that wasn't the best of ideas, he got a bit carried away. I genuinely got upset when I read about how Zinoviev and Kamenev reacted when they were being sentenced to death. Precisely!
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And yeah that wasn't the best of ideas, he got a bit carried away. I genuinely got upset when I read about how Zinoviev and Kamenev reacted when they were being sentenced to death. Precisely! Posted from TSR Mobile
Lenin and Trotsky were not the most benevolent of people either. Lenin made his political enemies drink molten lead and had them thrown into burning ditches, however he did predict Stalin's rise and tried to warn the other Bolsheviks about it and treated animals well. Trotsky though far kinder than Stalin still abandoned his family. I recommend if you have not read it, Lenin's political testament which is freely avaliable on the internet.
Original post by Rational Thinker
Lenin and Trotsky were not the most benevolent of people either. Lenin made his political enemies drink molten lead and had them thrown into burning ditches, however he did predict Stalin's rise and tried to warn the other Bolsheviks about it and treated animals well. Trotsky though far kinder than Stalin still abandoned his family. I recommend if you have not read it, Lenin's political testament which is freely avaliable on the internet.
Oh wow, I knew he wasn't the nicest of people (obviously), but I didn't know he went that far! How disgusting. True! Yeah good point. Ooh I may do, I'm sure it would fascinate me, thank you for the suggestion
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I think Juan Peron was a genius, he bought to Argentina the most prosperous period in the history, unlucky that US felt threatened by its prosperity and did everything to remove him from power.
Another dictator who i consider to have been a very intelligent person, Antonio Salazar...i know that it's controversial for many Portuguese, but i consider that the man was a genius.
Another dictator who i consider to have been a very intelligent person, Antonio Salazar...i know that it's controversial for many Portuguese, but i consider that the man was a genius.
Augustus Caesar - while not the militarily genius that Julius Caesar was, Octavian/Augustus was undoubtedly far more capable politically, and succeeded in ending decades of civil war and establishing himself as absolute ruler for life.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Tabzqt
Stalin, fascinating how he managed to convince all the other senior members of the party that he was a "grey blur", when really he was anything but.
I agree.
Original post by mevidek
Hmmm.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CSI support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
I'd say Lenin was a genius. Though he came from a more well-off background than Stalin, he was still in a class excluded completely from the ruling of the country and his Soviet system was a brilliant means to cripple all opposition within the 'Reds'. Likewise, his adoption of the NEP to prevent complete economic collapse, his consolidation of power by 1923 so that there was no open or organised opposition was perhaps the most efficient of all dictators, ever. Furthermore, he's seen by many as not nearly as bad as Stalin or the other Communist dictators (though he was undoubtably equally as bad), so arguably he succeeded in becoming an icon, something most dictators never achieved/achieve seeing as they're almost always criticised heavily.
Otherwise, Pinochet was pretty smart in gaining CSI support and ruling Chile for most of his life, and Putin, too, is proving brilliant at convincing his people his autocracy is the best system for Russia.
Rubbish. Lenin was no dictator. The NEP was a necessary step to prevent complete economic collapse as you say, but it was a reaction to the crippling backwardness of the country, and was only intended as a temporary measure. He said this himself several times, he did not want to do it, but he was forced to. Yes he made sure that there was no organised opposition, and do you know why? Because there was a revolution that needed defending! Russia was under attack by 21 foreign armies, supported by the allies, and then they had a bloody civil war. Counter revolution was everywhere. What sane leader would allow more potentially threats to the worker's state you had just formed? Look at events in their proper context.
So tell me, how on earth have you come to the conclusion that Lenin was a dictator? He was instrumental in setting up arguably the most democratic system of government (during the early years of the Russian Revolution, before it degenerated under Stalin) the world had ever seen.
Original post by MrFlash1994
Rubbish. Lenin was no dictator.
You're wrong. Lenin was a very evil dictator and just as bad as Stalin. He mercilessly massacred the Kronstadt sailors, who had originally supported him, just because they asked for elections and enough food to eat. He implemented policies of grain requisitioning during the Civil War to steal food off starving peasants. He invaded Poland without provocation, attempting to crush the Polish people's new found liberty which they had won after centuries of occupation.
Original post by Rational Thinker
Who do you regard as the most intelligent dictator? Personally I would say Joseph Stalin or Franco.
Franco
Worked his way up through Spanish military.
Convinced Germany and Italy to help him in Spanish Civil War
Arguably a military genius
Outsmarted Hitler by not joining in WW2
Kept Spain neutral and was thus Spain was the only Fascist country to profit out of WW2.
Franco
Worked his way up through Spanish military.
Convinced Germany and Italy to help him in Spanish Civil War
Arguably a military genius
Outsmarted Hitler by not joining in WW2
Kept Spain neutral and was thus Spain was the only Fascist country to profit out of WW2.
Original post by Rational Thinker
Well said. I would still say Franco though just for his amazing longevity and the fact he is still beloved in parts of Spain.
I'm spanish and I consider myself to have a rather "centre" point of view (Neither Left-wing nor right wing), with this I mean that some of my ideas are right wing and others are left wing, so in general my ideas are peculiar and I believe in whats the best for my country and for europe (The European Union is the future and is the only way in which Europe will be able to maintain its "high quality life" and its influence)
Franco did many good things for spain, such as maintaining outside of WW2, making education available to everyone (and compulsory) and improving transport lines + developing the countryside, however, the consequences of franco's dictatorship outnumber the benefits. 1 million people died in the civil war, the military governed the country during 40 years and the people couldn't speak openly (censured)...
However, History is history and the idea that Franco is beloved is totally wrong. There used to be a square in his name and a statue in each spanish settlement (Village, town, city), yet 2 years ago the last one (the one in his home town) was removed.
The people that would continue to support Franco, are mainly the 55+. Spain is better without Franco, yet I do believe that the past is the past, and we can't eliminate it, so.... why eliminate statues that represent our past even if its a bad one? At the end of the day, Franco returned the power to the people without Spain rising and there being a revolution.
To put an example, there is such resentment among the population that there is no totally right wing party (The governing party is supposed to be right wing, but its quite moderate, especially when compared to right-wing groups of other countries such as Greece, the netherlands or the USA).
In addittion, if a spanish person wears a flag (the flg of spain) or has a flag on his window, without there being any Sport event (Mainly Football) we automatically name him "Facha" which sort of means "Fu**ing Fascist"
The truth being said, Franco was not a military genius... he was a good strategic... however he was too "conservative" in the battlefield (Sorry, my english isn't perfect
) and in moments in which he should have attacked he didn't have the guts and therefore the civil lasted 3 years. In addittion, Franco wouldn't have been able to gain the power if it wouldn't have been for the negligent democratic government that preceded him. The government before him, was nearly communist and permmitted the burning down of churches and the stripping of the military's power... which lead to the church and the armed forces being against them. In addittion, the government had most of the Spanish Armada under control as well as the "Spanish Tanks and plains" yet they didn't use them efficiently and permmitted Franco pass from the colonies of Marroco into spain, wining lots of soldiers and gaining the support of Germany and Italy. If they would have taken his "revolution" seriously and they would have attempted to crush him within the first 3 months, Franco wouldn't have gained control of Spain and the civil war wouldn't have occurred.However, I must admit that Franco he was sufficiently intelligent to be able to maintain a dictatorship in Europe, after all the others (Such as portugal) fell. Moreover, he died as "president", nobody assassinated him and he gave over the power without succombing to a revolution, however, during the last decade of his dictatorship spain changed alot and the country was more open and people had more freedom.
Original post by Super Cicero
Augustus Caesar - while not the militarily genius that Julius Caesar was, Octavian/Augustus was undoubtedly far more capable politically, and succeeded in ending decades of civil war and establishing himself as absolute ruler for life.
True. He revolutioned Rome's systems, which enabled him to preserve the empire for centuries... Julius, Pompey and others won the territories, but Augustus was the one that managed to keep them under control. Just as difficult...
Original post by Rational Thinker
I agree. Stalin did some unpleasant things (some of which are too unpleasant to mention here) but he was definitely a genius and more well read than anyone else in the Bolshevik party other than Lenin and perhaps Trotsky. The only things he did that were foolish was purging his military to the extent that they were severely damaged by the Finish in the Winter War. Nonetheless even Hitler envied Stalin's control over the military.
Trotsky was more a man of great ideas and theories, and he was a decent military commander, but when it came to politics he wasn't very smart. His arrogance and condecention meant that his colleagues hated him and led him to underestimate Stalin until it was too late.
I would dissagree with some of what you say about Franco; he was at best a mediocre commander, and he did not really 'outsmart' Hitler by not joining WW2. He refused to join because Hitler would not give him French Morocco if I remember correctly. He was however, incredibly politically astute; although left wing writers have a tendancy to lump all the Nationalist forces as 'fascists', they were in fact a widely disparate group of people who Franco was able to unite. A lot of his success was to do with luck and the weakness of his opponents than his own personal qualities.
I would add as an intelligent dictator Josip Broz Tito; he led the multinationalist NOPOJ, one of the most successful anti-fascist resistance movements in occupied Europe which crushed the facsists and their quislings. He was able to keep Yugoslavia out of the Soviet sphere, he maintained good relations with the West despite being a communist andhe was able to liberalise his regime when pressure built up. His national politics were fairly progressive for the time. This is of course not to romanticise his regime as some western authors do; along other things, Kosovo for instance was ruled as a brutal police state until the fall of Aleksandar Ranković, and he did renge on his promise to the Albanians.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Super Cicero
You're wrong. Lenin was a very evil dictator and just as bad as Stalin. He mercilessly massacred the Kronstadt sailors, who had originally supported him, just because they asked for elections and enough food to eat. He implemented policies of grain requisitioning during the Civil War to steal food off starving peasants. He invaded Poland without provocation, attempting to crush the Polish people's new found liberty which they had won after centuries of occupation.
This is not entirely true. The krondstadt sailors made some demands of the government , which the government did not grant hence the sailors started revolting against Lenins government.
lenin only took them out because they started another revolution. he had to , any other dictator would do the same thing. That doesn't justify his actions , but he didn't just go and attack them for requesting stuff.
What's more , the krondstadt sailors were fighting very well. it was Trotsky who mobilised the Red Army into action and trained them , the only reason the Red Army won was because of the exceptional leadership shown by Trotsky at the time - Lenin may have ordered the army to stop the krondstadt revolution , but Trotksy was the reason they died. Plus it was not a " merciless massacre " - the krondstadt sailors were killing many Red Army soldiers , and the Red Army were told to charge out into the open where there was ZERO cover - so in all honesty , yes the Red Army won but it does seem asif Lenin ( or Trotsky even ) ordered the massacre of the red army soldiers rather than the krondstadt sailors.
that para above has been explained very poorly i'll admit , but basically they didn't care how many Red Army soldiers had to die inorder to defeat the krondstadt sailors. hopefully my point has been made.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Fas
This is not entirely true. The krondstadt sailors made some demands of the government , which the government did not grant hence the sailors started revolting against Lenins government.
lenin only took them out because they started another revolution. he had to , any other dictator would do the same thing. That doesn't justify his actions , but he didn't just go and attack them for requesting stuff.
lenin only took them out because they started another revolution. he had to , any other dictator would do the same thing. That doesn't justify his actions , but he didn't just go and attack them for requesting stuff.
the point of Marxism in that stage is to establish a temporary state to deal with counter revolutionary groups (in the interest of the majority), I would say Lenin did a pretty good job.
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