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algebra q

can someone guide me through this. I do understand the pigeonhole principle but I have never seen proof of anything related to this principle.

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Original post by cooldudeman
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Here's a very longwinded interpretation/background. It's overkill - intentionally - as explanations go but hopefully allows you to now solve it yourself.

To use the pigeonhole principle here you need to work out two things, which are closely related:

What are the pigeonholes and how many are there?

You're trying to show that if you have 7 of something then there must be at least two satisfying a given criterion.

Just thinking here on how to go about the question - if all 7 fitted into their own pigeonholes the criteria is unlikely to be met.

So, we're looking for 6 pigeonholes.

This would force two to be in the same one.

Now we want "two in the same pigeonhole" to mean "two satisfying the criterion"

The criterion being those two are at most 1 cm apart. I.e. one lies within a certain distance of the other. If we fix one point, then the other lies within a certain area.

So, we're looking to divide the hexagon up into 6 areas, which will form the pigeonholes.

I think you should be able to have a go from there.
Reply 3
Original post by ghostwalker
Here's a very longwinded interpretation/background. It's overkill - intentionally - as explanations go but hopefully allows you to now solve it yourself.

To use the pigeonhole principle here you need to work out two things, which are closely related:

What are the pigeonholes and how many are there?

You're trying to show that if you have 7 of something then there must be at least two satisfying a given criterion.

Just thinking here on how to go about the question - if all 7 fitted into their own pigeonholes the criteria is unlikely to be met.

So, we're looking for 6 pigeonholes.

This would force two to be in the same one.

Now we want "two in the same pigeonhole" to mean "two satisfying the criterion"

The criterion being those two are at most 1 cm apart. I.e. one lies within a certain distance of the other. If we fix one point, then the other lies within a certain area.

So, we're looking to divide the hexagon up into 6 areas, which will form the pigeonholes.

I think you should be able to have a go from there.


OK if we split the hexagon into 6 identical equalatiral triangles (1cm all sides) which will represent the pigeonholes calling thus k. the points in the hexagon are the pigeons calling this n. so n=7 and k =6 and 7/6 =2(taking upper bound). therefore 2 points will have to be within 1cm from each other since there are 6 equalatiral triangles and 7>6.

is the above enough to be an answer?

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Original post by cooldudeman
OK if we split the hexagon into 6 identical equalatiral triangles (1cm all sides) which will represent the pigeonholes calling thus k. the points in the hexagon are the pigeons calling this n. so n=7 and k =6 and 7/6 =2(taking upper bound). therefore 2 points will have to be within 1cm from each other since there are 6 equalatiral triangles and 7>6.

is the above enough to be an answer?

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I would say:

We can divide the hexagon into six equilateral triangles. Since there are seven points, then at least one triangle must contain at least two points. The maximum distance any two points are apart in an equilateral triangle is the length of any side, viz 1cm. Hence there must be two points who are no more than 1 cm apart.
Reply 5
Original post by ghostwalker
I would say:

We can divide the hexagon into six equilateral triangles. Since there are seven points, then at least one triangle must contain at least two points. The maximum distance any two points are apart in an equilateral triangle is the length of any side, viz 1cm. Hence there must be two points who are no more than 1 cm apart.


Thanks, nice to know that I wasn't way off.

sorry to bother with a follow up question but if you have time, please help with this one. I have got absolutely no clue. none of my previous lectures explained probability related things but my best guess is that its still to do with the pigeons.

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Reply 6
take any one ball. how may ways can it be kept..... 7
there are 7 such balls, each can be kept in 7 ways.
so, total numbers of arrangement possible = 7 x 7 = 49
now if the 2 black balls (one in the periphery and 1 in the centre) are arranged.... 6 combinations are possible.
also if the 2 black balls are kept side by side then 6 combinations are possible.
so probability = (6+6)/49
Original post by cooldudeman

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Can't see how you'd use pigeonholes here. If questions 2,4 on your handout are on pigeonholes, then it may be worth pursuing - some pigeonhole questions can be quite difficult to see.


Otherwise shubhro has the right idea, although his numbers are not all correct. Have a go.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by ghostwalker
Can see how you'd use pigeonholes here. If questions 2,4 on your handout are on pigeonholes, then it may be worth pursuing - some pigeonhole questions can be quite difficult to see.


Otherwise shubhro has the right idea, although his numbers are not all correct. Have a go.


thanks I'll have a go. I might ask my teacher aswell because this topic is so much harder than analysis and vectors.

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Reply 9
OK this is what I done and then I'm pretty sure its wrong. I couldn't see the pigeon stuff so I just did it shubros way

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Original post by cooldudeman
OK this is what I done and then I'm pretty sure its wrong. I couldn't see the pigeon stuff so I just did it shubros way

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This is really an S1 question on combinatorics, which you've already covered.

To start:

Consider how many possibilities for the first black ball?

Now once you've placed the first black ball, how many possibilities are there for the second one?

Etc.

PS: It's easier if you put your working on the forum, rather than an attached image, otherwise I can't quote it.
Reply 11
Original post by ghostwalker
This is really an S1 question on combinatorics, which you've already covered.

To start:

Consider how many possibilities for the first black ball?

Now once you've placed the first black ball, how many possibilities are there for the second one?

Etc.

PS: It's easier if you put your working on the forum, rather than an attached image, otherwise I can't quote it.


would you be able to tell me the p principle way instead? because I think that will helpe more in the long run

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Original post by cooldudeman
would you be able to tell me the p principle way instead? because I think that will helpe more in the long runNeither ghostwalker or I think that it is a pigeonhole question. It's (fairly) elementary combinatorics.
Reply 13
Original post by DFranklin
Neither ghostwalker or I think that it is a pigeonhole question. It's (fairly) elementary combinatorics.


ohh its all making sense now lol. it seems so unfair because no lecture explained anything to do with these questions. I know that I'm uni they don't spoon feed you but still, come on!

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