Oxord vice-chancellor says fee for Oxford University should be £16k a year, thoughts?
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/oxford-v-c-raises-prospect-of-16k-fees/2007971.article
Basically he's saying it apparently costs them closer to £16k for each student, so the current £9k cap is causing a shortfall in university funds, he says it costs them around 70m a year with the funding gap. He believes future governments should scrap any fee cap and allow much more variation between universities in their pricing, the idea being competition and the free market will basically sort things out. For a higher quality education you'd pay more, basically.
If the shortfall is correct then I suppose he has a point, though I would be concerned if students are unable to take out student loans to cover such high course fees, as it would create a multi-tier system where family wealth trumps academic ability, a path I don't think we'd want to go down. Suppose Oxford would give out many scholarships, but still...
thoughts people?
Basically he's saying it apparently costs them closer to £16k for each student, so the current £9k cap is causing a shortfall in university funds, he says it costs them around 70m a year with the funding gap. He believes future governments should scrap any fee cap and allow much more variation between universities in their pricing, the idea being competition and the free market will basically sort things out. For a higher quality education you'd pay more, basically.
If the shortfall is correct then I suppose he has a point, though I would be concerned if students are unable to take out student loans to cover such high course fees, as it would create a multi-tier system where family wealth trumps academic ability, a path I don't think we'd want to go down. Suppose Oxford would give out many scholarships, but still...
thoughts people?
(edited 10 years ago)
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Dear Vice-Chancellor,
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by nulli tertius
Dear Vice-Chancellor,
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
Well port is important
Original post by nulli tertius
Dear Vice-Chancellor,
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
PRSOM. Especially about the really good port
Original post by nulli tertius
Dear Vice-Chancellor,
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
Very interesting speech. Perhaps you would elucidate a few things:
1 Is the cost of providing a degree in English literature the same as providing one in engineering? If not, why do you believe it is appropriate for English literature students (rather than the University, taxpayers or engineering students) to bear part of the cost of providing engineering degrees.
2 For the past 800+ years people have been giving money to Oxford University. If you consider that present students (or those who lend to them) should pay the full cost of providing their own education, what do think all these benefactions, and the income derived from them, were for? Providing the dons with really good port perhaps?
3 I appreciate that Oxford University provides a very good education. Can you please provide a cost/benefit analysis demonstrating that it provides a £7,000 per annum better education than say UCL or Newcastle?
Yours sincerely
Nulli Tertius
The actual degree cost is reflected by the fees international students pay. A degree in medicine from Oxford would cost you around £30k p.a.
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Original post by CEKTOP
The actual degree cost is reflected by the fees international students pay.
Up to a point. Do you really think it costs £41,000 to teach the Oxford MBA compared with £13,860 for an MSc in Modern Japanese Studies?
wut it's bad enough at 9k; our system really must be screwed if the scottish can run their educational institutions free of charge while we're thinking about increasing them; yet again.
Original post by nulli tertius
Up to a point. Do you really think it costs £41,000 to teach the Oxford MBA compared with £13,860 for an MSc in Modern Japanese Studies?
MBAs are prestigious programs, the facilities to house them cost hundreds of millions and MBA professors are the highest paid in the education industry. These programs are competing to recruit the brightest business professionals in the world.
So yes it does cost a lot more to teach MBA students than humanities students
Original post by joey11223
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/oxford-v-c-raises-prospect-of-16k-fees/2007971.article
Basically he's saying it apparently costs them closer to £16k for each student, so the current £9k cap is causing a shortfall in university funds, he says it costs them around 70m a year with the funding gap. He believes future governments should scrap any fee cap and allow much more variation between universities in their pricing, the idea being competition and the free market will basically sort things out. For a higher quality education you'd pay more, basically.
If the shortfall is correct then I suppose he has a point, though I would be concerned if students are unable to take out student loans to cover such high course fees, as it would create a multi-tier system where family wealth trumps academic ability, a path I don't think we'd want to go down. Suppose Oxford would give out many scholarships, but still...
thoughts people?
Basically he's saying it apparently costs them closer to £16k for each student, so the current £9k cap is causing a shortfall in university funds, he says it costs them around 70m a year with the funding gap. He believes future governments should scrap any fee cap and allow much more variation between universities in their pricing, the idea being competition and the free market will basically sort things out. For a higher quality education you'd pay more, basically.
If the shortfall is correct then I suppose he has a point, though I would be concerned if students are unable to take out student loans to cover such high course fees, as it would create a multi-tier system where family wealth trumps academic ability, a path I don't think we'd want to go down. Suppose Oxford would give out many scholarships, but still...
thoughts people?
It is pretty ridiculous that an education at Cambridge or Imperial costs the same as an education at an ex-poly.
Something needs to be done to redress this, otherwise top institutions will continue to favour international students over british students.
Original post by GeogBerry
I'm not applying to oxford, but this is stupid. Seriously, I'm pushed at 9k, there is no way I would be able to actually completely pay off my student loan if it was any higher. (I don't even plan to pay it off as it is)
I wouldn't think anyone would unless they were earning mega-money. It's basically a graduate tax, like a lot of other countries implement.
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I'm not sure I buy the fact that Oxford is now struggling to keep afloat. It'd be interesting to see their 2012/13 financial statements published.
According to their financial statements to the 2011/12 academic year, their income from academic fees rose by 13.42% despite their student numbers rising by only 0.16%.
Whilst it is natural for expenditure to increase year on year, it doesn't seem sensible to me that when you know your HEFCE grant allocations are going to be reduced and a significant gap left between that reduction and the increase by £5.5k in tuition fees, that you'd go out of your way to increase expenditure by £63.6m as they did during that year. It's a time of uncertainty and known losses.
I'm not so much advocating cuts, but it seems like they have chosen to risk increasing a shortfall by spending more money knowing full well what the government's reductions were likely to look like.
I can't argue with the fact that it costs say £16k/year to deliver a student's undergraduate degree programme, but given the clear benefits of higher education not only in a series of financial transactions but in the wider benefits to society, the question is who should be funding it - students, government, graduate beneficiaries, donators, business?
According to their financial statements to the 2011/12 academic year, their income from academic fees rose by 13.42% despite their student numbers rising by only 0.16%.
Whilst it is natural for expenditure to increase year on year, it doesn't seem sensible to me that when you know your HEFCE grant allocations are going to be reduced and a significant gap left between that reduction and the increase by £5.5k in tuition fees, that you'd go out of your way to increase expenditure by £63.6m as they did during that year. It's a time of uncertainty and known losses.
I'm not so much advocating cuts, but it seems like they have chosen to risk increasing a shortfall by spending more money knowing full well what the government's reductions were likely to look like.
I can't argue with the fact that it costs say £16k/year to deliver a student's undergraduate degree programme, but given the clear benefits of higher education not only in a series of financial transactions but in the wider benefits to society, the question is who should be funding it - students, government, graduate beneficiaries, donators, business?
Original post by DarthVador
MBAs are prestigious programs, the facilities to house them cost hundreds of millions and MBA professors are the highest paid in the education industry. These programs are competing to recruit the brightest business professionals in the world.
So yes it does cost a lot more to teach MBA students than humanities students
So yes it does cost a lot more to teach MBA students than humanities students
The Said cost around £50 million of which £35 million was given by Mr Said.
Most of the academics are paid on the same scale regardless of subject. Note two posts at the same level at the Said and the Maths Institute. They would be paid at the same rate in humanities but currently there are no vacancies.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/jobs/academic/index/ac13487j/
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/jobs/academic/index/ac13341j/
That isn't true at the very top end but the wage bill for clinical medicine will be far in excess of that at the Said.
Original post by DarthVador
It is pretty ridiculous that an education at Cambridge or Imperial costs the same as an education at an ex-poly.
Something needs to be done to redress this, otherwise top institutions will continue to favour international students over british students.
Something needs to be done to redress this, otherwise top institutions will continue to favour international students over british students.
Would you rather they favored the rich instead?
If you were a CEO or some top exec and on a mega wage ie say in excess of £450,000 pa then £16,000 would be a mere drop in the ocean.
On the other-hand, if your parents were not educated to degree level say, did not earn much but had cared immensely about your education and have supported you all the way. made huge sacrifices for you to have tutors etc then it would be so unfair for their child not to be able to go to Oxford just because of cost. Yes, I know they could get a loan and they would eventually earn more and who knows maybe never have to pay it off but even so an undergraduate degree then a masters, possibly 6 years of study could mean a debt of £120,000 minimum.
On the other-hand, if your parents were not educated to degree level say, did not earn much but had cared immensely about your education and have supported you all the way. made huge sacrifices for you to have tutors etc then it would be so unfair for their child not to be able to go to Oxford just because of cost. Yes, I know they could get a loan and they would eventually earn more and who knows maybe never have to pay it off but even so an undergraduate degree then a masters, possibly 6 years of study could mean a debt of £120,000 minimum.
Well they've have managed with a lot less than £9000 per student for decades. Why another fee rise?
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Just worth pointing out that Hamilton earns £424k a year - if Oxford dropped his salary to a market rate (say for example the miserly £258k Cambridge pays his counterpart) that would plug the funding gap on 23* Oxford students a year straight away...
* and a little left over for decent port.
* and a little left over for decent port.
(edited 10 years ago)
This is hardly surprising news. Oxford professors are paid exceptionally well and they attract not only the best students, but also the best staff. Additionally, subjects like the sciences do actually cost a lot to provide.
With that being said this is more a concern of operating costs since revenue from international students more than makes up for the short fall, additionally Oxford gets about £3bn from patents (Cambridge is even richer, it's the 4th biggest land owner in the UK).
I really don't know why people would be surprised that the most elite university in the country (so prestigious that it could survive entirely with private funding) is asserting that its tuition fees should reflect the university.
With that being said this is more a concern of operating costs since revenue from international students more than makes up for the short fall, additionally Oxford gets about £3bn from patents (Cambridge is even richer, it's the 4th biggest land owner in the UK).
I really don't know why people would be surprised that the most elite university in the country (so prestigious that it could survive entirely with private funding) is asserting that its tuition fees should reflect the university.
Only one person I've seen has pointed out the obvious problem: This will lead to richer students going to Oxford or Cambridge, and poorer students being put off. Thus;
- A return to elitism.
- Oxford no longer having the best students.
The impact wouldn't be immediate, as Oxford's reputation is enough to coerce the middle classes at least into more debt, but it's not ethical. Higher education should not be unobtainable - that's bad for social mobility, bad for the economy, and completely against all ideals of academia. If Oxford are to remember what they are founded on, they should be no different.
- A return to elitism.
- Oxford no longer having the best students.
The impact wouldn't be immediate, as Oxford's reputation is enough to coerce the middle classes at least into more debt, but it's not ethical. Higher education should not be unobtainable - that's bad for social mobility, bad for the economy, and completely against all ideals of academia. If Oxford are to remember what they are founded on, they should be no different.
(edited 10 years ago)
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