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    So the Muslim boys have been allowed to keep their beards and return to school.
    The school had to comply with EU regulations.
    The headteachers was obviously discriminating against the boys by not allowing them to come to school in the first place.
    Dont mess with religionHaha



    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-24495896
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    Disappointing.
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    It's completely illiberal to ban any school children from growing beards, I don't see the religious aspect as the issue here as much as the school telling the children what to look like being the issue.
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    Religion aside, what is the issue of a beard?


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    (Original post by Aidan50148028)
    Religion aside, what is the issue of a beard?


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    Presentability of the kids.
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    (Original post by Cynical-)
    Presentability of the kids.
    be quiet
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    First the Niqaab/Burkha ban got overturned at Birmingham Metropolitan College, and now this.

    Alhamdulillah.

    (Original post by Cynical-)
    Presentability of the kids.
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    Will the non-muslim kids also be allowed beards?
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Will the non-muslim kids also be allowed beards?
    If not it is hypocritical.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Will the non-muslim kids also be allowed beards?
    If I was a non-muslim at the school I'd certainly challenge this.
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    I don't see any problem with thm having beards- some teachers have bears dont they. id much rather they banned pupils(and teachers) from wearing burkhas.
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    Quite pleased. Stupid rule anyway.

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    When a non Muslim turns up at the school with a beard and he is allowed to stay, then will I be happy.

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    (Original post by SuziieB)
    When a non Muslim turns up at the school with a beard and he is allowed to stay, then will I be happy.

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    What's the need for pathetic games? Muslim, non Muslim are labels that separate people, why are you perpetuating it?

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    (Original post by Ggmu!)
    What's the need for pathetic games? Muslim, non Muslim are labels that separate people, why are you perpetuating it?

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    Agree, the hatred people have really makes me chuckle sometimes.

    Besides it's funny how everyone was getting all flustered over that Islamic school that was forcing its teachers to dress a certain way, but apparently it's perfectly acceptable to compel those students to dress a certain way.
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    (Original post by Ggmu!)
    What's the need for pathetic games? Muslim, non Muslim are labels that separate people, why are you perpetuating it?

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    Because having one group of kids being subjected to different rules than another set of kids in our education system based on their faith is A) against secularism and against the law and B) A very bad idea for the dynamics of the school, kids are going to pick up on the way certain members of their peer group are treated differently and it will result in them separating into the "those allowed beards" and "those who aren't allowed beards".

    Muslims and non Muslims banned from having beards - OK
    Muslims and non Muslims allowed beards - OK (which i hope is the situation here)
    Muslims allowed beards and non Muslims not allowed beards - ERROR
    Muslims not allowed beards and non Muslims allowed beards - ERROR (but kinda funny)
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    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    Because having one group of kids being subjected to different rules than another set of kids in our education system based on their faith is A) against secularism and against the law and B) A very bad idea for the dynamics of the school, kids are going to pick up on the way certain members of their peer group are treated differently and it will result in them separating into the "those allowed beards" and "those who aren't allowed beards".)
    But they're clearly not being subjected to different standards as the EU ruling clearly set out. That ruling isn't just enacted for one subset of the population. It seems as if the people who harp on about Muslims being subjected to different rules clearly don't know what the original rules are. Besides, since when were beards a "bad dynamic" for a school :confused:
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    (Original post by 2ndClass)
    But they're clearly not being subjected to different standards as the EU ruling clearly set out. That ruling isn't just enacted for one subset of the population. It seems as if the people who harp on about Muslims being subjected to different rules clearly don't know what the original rules are. Besides, since when were beards a "bad dynamic" for a school :confused:
    The original issue was Muslims being excluded because they refused to remove their beards which were at odds with the schools policy on appearance, the options avaliable were that the Muslims students remain excluded and find another place to study (as you pointed out EU law rules out this option), that Muslims be given special privillages in regards to the bear wearing which would have the problems i outlined above (will explain more below) or the third most sensible option being making beards acceptable for all students thus taking into consideration the religious beliefs of a certain group while maintaining equality amoung all students.

    The point about beards causing problems is due to evolution, humans as a species identify with people similar to ourselves. For instance there was an experiment done on children in kindergarten where they were shown 5 pictures of a cartoon child and in each picture the child had a different skin colour, the kids were then asked to pick the nicest one and the naughty one. The cartoon child was completely the same in every picture apart from skin colour. They asked a bunch of white kids to pick and every one picked the blackest kid as being the naughty one and the whitest kid as being the nice one.

    Obviously the Americans were up in arms accusing the government, education boards, television and even Sesame street at one point of making their kids racist. The reality was that those results showed the children were actually normal. The experiment was first devised in 1940 by a husband and wife duo called Kevin and Mimi Clark, they set out to prove institutionalized racism in the American school system by using a similar method which they called the "child race doll test" as you can imagine it was the same test done with dolls rather than a cartoon. The difference between those experiments was that the dolls were shown to black kids and asked the same question nearly all of them picked the white kid as nicest and the black kid as naughty.

    This highlights a problem, kids are meant to think people the most similar to them are nice because that's what humans evolved to do, black kids picking white dolls showed a pretty big problem. Now the beard issues would arise from a similar psychological basis, the reason we have uniforms is to stop the kids who don't have money or dress sense from being marked as "different", having one group of kids who can have beards and another who can't have beards will create the same kind of issue.

    These kinds of experiments have been done time and time again at one point 10 students were picked out of a high school year which had around 50 students, those 10 were given purple ribbons to wear around their right arm. By the end of the two weeks it was observed that the kids with purple ribbons were in their own group, having lunch together and spending breaks together. It sounds bananas especially considering high school students are old enough to "know better" however the truth is simple things which create "us and them" mentalities can quickly result in the exclusion of a certain group of people based on the most mundane things in this case that thing is beards. Allowing everyone to have beards would somewhat lessen that problem as it changes it from a special privilege to a choice.
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    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    The original issue was Muslims being excluded because they refused to remove their beards which were at odds with the schools policy on appearance, the options avaliable were that the Muslims students remain excluded and find another place to study (as you pointed out EU law rules out this option), that Muslims be given special privillages in regards to the bear wearing which would have the problems i outlined above (will explain more below) or the third most sensible option being making beards acceptable for all students thus taking into consideration the religious beliefs of a certain group while maintaining equality amoung all students.

    The point about beards causing problems is due to evolution, humans as a species identify with people similar to ourselves. For instance there was an experiment done on children in kindergarten where they were shown 5 pictures of a cartoon child and in each picture the child had a different skin colour, the kids were then asked to pick the nicest one and the naughty one. The cartoon child was completely the same in every picture apart from skin colour. They asked a bunch of white kids to pick and every one picked the blackest kid as being the naughty one and the whitest kid as being the nice one.

    Obviously the Americans were up in arms accusing the government, education boards, television and even Sesame street at one point of making their kids racist. The reality was that those results showed the children were actually normal. The experiment was first devised in 1940 by a husband and wife duo called Kevin and Mimi Clark, they set out to prove institutionalized racism in the American school system by using a similar method which they called the "child race doll test" as you can imagine it was the same test done with dolls rather than a cartoon. The difference between those experiments was that the dolls were shown to black kids and asked the same question nearly all of them picked the white kid as nicest and the black kid as naughty.

    This highlights a problem, kids are meant to think people the most similar to them are nice because that's what humans evolved to do, black kids picking white dolls showed a pretty big problem. Now the beard issues would arise from a similar psychological basis, the reason we have uniforms is to stop the kids who don't have money or dress sense from being marked as "different", having one group of kids who can have beards and another who can't have beards will create the same kind of issue.

    These kinds of experiments have been done time and time again at one point 10 students were picked out of a high school year which had around 50 students, those 10 were given purple ribbons to wear around their right arm. By the end of the two weeks it was observed that the kids with purple ribbons were in their own group, having lunch together and spending breaks together. It sounds bananas especially considering high school students are old enough to "know better" however the truth is simple things which create "us and them" mentalities can quickly result in the exclusion of a certain group of people based on the most mundane things in this case that thing is beards. Allowing everyone to have beards would somewhat lessen that problem as it changes it from a special privilege to a choice.
    I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying. So the issue of the beard inherently represents a "bad" stereotype and you believe that those children because of their dress sense, will automatically choose to segregate themselves from other students or conversely, the other students will refuse to socialize with them. Second because we are evolutionarily predisposed to identifying with people who are similar to us and ascribe them "nice" attributes, we shouldn't seek to break the mold and instead, conform to other people's preconceived notions of what's right and wrong.

    Firstly children evolve their identities through a plethora of mediums. I'm sure when you were in high school you encountered goths, grunge/metal heads hipsters etc. There is no single identity that people collectively express or ascribe to. To suggest that the length of one's hair is detrimental to cohesion is quite bizarre. If a girl for instance wanted to crop her hair or you chose to grow yours out, does that mean you will automatically choose to associate with those who have similar hairstyles? Ideas of bad and good are socialized into us by positions of authority. Those views of racism that you mentioned certainly reflected this. The perception that "black" is bad and white is "good" was enforced both by the racism of the white parents and the feelings inferiority of the black parents. The entire notion that these kids will be seen as bad because of their religious expression speaks more of the bigotry and ignorance of wider society as the experiment (to me at least) demonstrated. .School is a perfect opportunity for those children to see through those stereotypes. To compel these students to dress a certain way only reinforces those views.

    Which leads to the second point and the notion of evolution being a determinant. So because for instance homosexuality is antithetical to evolution, (in your sense that people naturally do not identify with it), any overt displays of it should be summarily discouraged? What does that achieve besides teach those children to repress themselves and reinforce an ideal of what is and isn't "normal"? The only thing that will create an "us and them" mentality is the ordeal those kids went through and the infamy that they now have amongst their peers and their teachers. They've been exposed from a vulnerable age to the realities of bigotry in this country which subsequently in my opinion, will cause them to permanently segregate themselves in the future.
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    Why are people posting about evolution? Get real people, its only a beard. I didn't read anywhere that only Muslims are allowed to have beards and non Muslims cannot have beards.

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