The Student Room Group

The Earnings vs. Cost of Living Crisis: A Perfect Storm

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Original post by Foo.mp3
That's what we've just had, we're now entering 'thin veneer' phase return to 'growth', but quite how long that will last is unclear and whether it represents more than a relatively temporary blip in a larger/deeper downcycle remains to be seen (all it will take is a little disruption in the global money markets and the whole lot will stack again, solvency remains a major issue in 'the West' and China now has asset price and liquidity issues of its own to contend with)

Aye, help to buy is a nice gesture but seems like solving a problem of affordability, relating to property market overheating, by throwing petrol onto the fire

I'd agree with that, although on the later point, by encouraging/supporting growth in other industries, rather than tieing the hands of the financial sector too much (beyond dividing retail/IB divisions into separate institutions and possibly dividing up 'too big to fail' ones)

This is what I am advising my family

Yup, I’m thinking in terms of 1-3 years

If central banks can maintain low rates, banks can continue to offload/hive off toxic debt, there is no major turbulence from emerging markets/China can sort herself out, and Fukushima gets cleared up without incident, then it’s difficult to see where the next major bump will come from aye, but never underestimate the power of the financial sector to **** themselves (and us all, by extension) in the ass! :rolleyes:

That will change as the heat in the London property market enables fresh bubbles to re-emerge e.g. in the SE/wider property market

The rich don’t really care about property rights although I suppose canny investors/institutions are always more than happy to swoop in and collect assets while prices are depressed/from desperate vendors. Most financial institutions would much rather not have to deal with repos etc though

Interest rate rises will quite simply kill a recovery in the UK due to high asset prices, private debt, and sensitive/bearish consumers

Yup, wages haven’t kept up, consumer debt remains high/austerity remains the order of the day ~ this is where ‘the rich’ need to understand that if you ‘squeeze’ the ‘squeezed middle’ too much, the fundamental engine of the economy (consumption) grinds to a halt

Ok wage rises are inflationary and impact on profitability, at least in the short term, but they are necessary not just for a fairer/more equal society in which standard of living, and hence quality of life, is generally improved, but also for optimal growth


lol i wouldnt call this growth, unemployment is still high and wages still low. Alongside personal debt levels still high. Government is interfering with the market and creating another debt bubble which will eventually follow the same route as 2008.
Reply 81
Original post by Foo.mp3
Great story but..


Better so get squeezed if you have air in your jacket than if you're already in a vice though.
Reply 82
Original post by Foo.mp3
They are talking about tapering QE in the states now and we haven't hit more of it up in quite a while now in the UK


And talking about reintroducing it in the Eurozone.
Original post by Foo.mp3

Hard not to admire your zeal :h:


It's hard not to admire yours, that was another epic multireply! :cool: If only there were time in the world to reply properly to a Foo.mp3 megapost! :colone:
Reply 84
Original post by Foo.mp3
Nope, we have c.17,000,000 home owner tenure households in the UK vs. c. 8,000,000 rental. More than the representative proportion (30%) of those with virtually no disposable income will naturally be in the later category however, although you are right to suggest that some will be in home ownership

Clothes have always been cheap, if you've had an incentive to seek out cheap alternatives to highstreet priced items (related costs of which may well have fallen relative to income in recent decades as you suggest). People with low disposable income buy baskets of goods dominated by necessity items, and typically pay for products at the lower end of quality/price ranges (hence average price levels are less applicable)

Focusing on people feeling the pinch the most, ‘the squeezed middle’ and (particularly) those below e.g. those in the quoted figures in the OP

Nice, but sadly not applicable across the board or since 2009. Wage increases have really stalled for the 99% since the crunch too..



Corrected for you, as per your request :smile:


Are you just drip feeding responses to keep this thread alive?

By the same token food is just as cheap, the inflation basket doesn't represent the queue at 14:30 on a Sunday for the third reduction items. The definitions seem to change to suit your needs, inflation on the whole basket, then a subset when it suits you...

Well as a full time public sector wage earner my salary has increased 76% since Jan '09, 63% since July '09. I'd be interested in your definition of the 1% to find out if I'm in it or not.

You realise your original graph and your new one disagree with each other? It seems the new one is higher if anything even though its supposed to be indexed :s-smilie:
Reply 85
Original post by Foo.mp3
See above :smile:


The above just bangs on about debt no?

Whats the total UK asset value relative to GDP?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 86
Original post by Foo.mp3
Pretty fine compared with what? Where do you get that valuation of assets from and is it nominal face value or fundamental value? (rhetorical question)

Excepting special circumstances e.g. haircuts, devaluations and defaults debts are fixed value vs. inflated/bubble asset (collateral) value estimates, which are both vague, and volatile (subject to market forces, cycles, animal spirits etc)

Furthermore, a significant proportion of asset price inflation is attributable to leveraging and hypothecation (the things that fuel, and refuel credit creation, which props up asset prices, in excess of fundamentals, in the first place)

Absolutely

My interpretation is that this is a tad unfair ~ knowing what I do about the forecast trajectory of growth in the stock of public debt, mess (heavily indebted) Japan is in (and USA will likely find herself in, in coming decades), and a few centrally planned projects that are underway/in the pipeline)

If your figure of £8tn is correct then it is c. 5.25:1 vs. total debt of c. 5:1, last time I checked


£7.3tn in 2012, would have nudged up a bit and yes, nominal value. I'd certainly rather have more assets than debt. Saying the UK is in debt makes it sound as if as a nation we are broke if our creditors pulled the plug.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/cap-stock/the-national-balance-sheet/2013-estimates/stb-national-balance-sheet--2013.html

Well debts are fixed in the currency they are taken out in. yes.
Reply 87
Original post by Foo.mp3
A point I have made, aye. Total debt @500% GDP is pretty frightening :s-smilie: (not least with virtually no, or negative, real income growth, the prospect of further asset price bubbles and interest rate rises [which will probably pop them] on the horizon, in the broader global context of liquidity crises in emerging markets, China getting out of Western treasuries and into gold, and both solvency and liquidity issues remaining in the EU and US)


Is it for a finance centre?

Consumer debt is what you should actually care about isn't it?
Renationalisation - Bad idea, seen how bad it was in the past don't go backwards but defo need better controls and regulation on some utilities in particular energy.
Taxing rich - To a certain extent is ok but don't over tax, look at France with a 75% top band and they are doing very bad.
Corporation taxes - Need to be cut not increased, these companies will be attracted to the UK and employ millions of people and contribute billions to the economy.
Tax Avoidance - Needs to be stopped.
Mass Immigration - Can't have too many people coming into UK especially those who are unskilled. Unemployment very high and pressure on services growing but still need young skilled immigration to help offset skill gaps and ageing population.
Wage control - Be very careful this can cause the same issues as rising tax on wealthy and could harm rather than improve situation.
Living wage - Great idea. this is the one area which isn't improving with the rest of the economy, incomes are falling and putting pressure on vulnerable.
Reply 89
Original post by Foo.mp3
Of course you are dear :h:

I don't see what's smug about having a good command of the facts/my discipline son, if it irks you then it's probably a sign of some innate insecurity eh.. :emog:


You really are just randomly replying to keep this thread alive aren't you?

Or has it taken you two weeks to fully develop that comeback?
Reply 90
Ah, right extensively opening up the entire education system to competition, interesting proposal..

Demand for places in private schools would rise though (and you know what that would mean for fees). The transition period would be chaos at best!

Sure, but this would take time (particularly given land resource constraints and relative inflexibility in the qualified teacher labour market teachers in the private sector often get a [surprisingly] relatively raw deal)



Indeed. While there is no one way to skin the education cat (Finland, the UK and Singapore have very different approaches but are all top 6) i do think that in the context of the UK system moving towards the Singaporean education voucher system would present an improvement.

There are ways to keep costs down. The state could for example have interested private schools register their interest and stipulate that the initial fee charged cannot be above that of the last academic year plus 2% and that rises must be restrained for eligible pupils to 2% per year. It's possible that this may mean higher fees to compensate for paying pupils however as the voucher system represents a redistribution of opportunity one could argue that the cost is one worth causing.

Sure but the policy could be phased in over time to alleviate this issue.

The problem with the reverse proposition is that we are lead to believe land ‘where the jobs are’ is scarce, affluent neighbourhoods don’t want/need social housing invasion, and people self-organise according to social preferences wherever they start out e.g. ethno-cultural-religious segregation occurs naturally over time, regardless of how interspersed peoples are to begin with, unless you can erode their social preferences along those lines, over time e.g. through evolution of identity/inclusivity (some success here but takes generations and seems to have failed so far re: the Muslim community, and portions of the Jewish community)

I agree, although I believe there are social and affordable housing requirements already in existence.. or were - perhaps planning regulations have changed

Short of fascism I don’t see this as doable (given the above re: discrete choice models ~ studied segregation trends in social economics, it’s pretty bleak)


Sure it takes time but you can take measures to simply renew such a policy prescription every few decades (assuming we still have a need for social housing at all).

Affordable housing is inadequate in that it can be regarded as house sold for below market price. The current need is primarily for rented accommodation which the private sector is seemingly unable to provide in sufficient quantities to satisfy demand. This therefore requires the expansion of social housing which is currently not taking place on a sufficient scale bringing me neatly onto the later infrastructure point.

I meant in terms of social housing only, that's easily done initially by simply changing the allocation model to one which takes into account social factors as well as need.

I wasn’t aware that that was the prevailing view in the UK? Keynesian demand management should be viewed with scepticism but where there is a demonstrable need, healthy projected return on investment (in labour market, and knock-on-effect business, terms at least), and adequate planning (including sensible, consistent costing), I’m sure most of the country would get behind such initiatives

Any idea of the scale of the off balance sheet liabilities for UK plc? I understand US ones are off the charts :s-smilie:

Aye, think the powers that be are starting to realise the need to break free of short term political cycles and knee-jerk economics. Interesting the BoE making effective guarantees into the future in attempts to encourage confidence/long(er) term investment decisions


Neither government has adeptly developed a strategy to deal with such issues be that for whatever reason.

£4.8tn is what I've seen.

Possibly but our electorate is largely as politically and economically illiterate as ever so i have little faith personally. When we see something groundbreaking like a sovereign wealth funded to an actual significant degree in combination with a fiscal surplus then i will have faith.

I’m not sure people on the breadline would agree they’re just a mild annoyance, and (what little) food security (we have left) is important to protect - against background thematics beyond climate change including: world population growth and rising consumption among persons in the developing world imo. It’s important to remember just how much resources will be needed when TROTW catches up with the consumption habits of the West

Down from 75% in 1991

What makes you so sure? We already have a very high proportion of land developable for agriculture in use.. (not just in the UK, but in TROTW too, in fact)


As i posted in the thread regarding a citizens dividend food costs are around half of rent costs. Focusing on food costs is rather like amputating the foot from a leg with a war wound to the knee. Additionally food costs over time have in real terms fallen.

Sure but since then we have seen the expansion of CAP. The loss in food security may not be a reflection of unsustainable production but simply a result of competition encouraged by significant subsidies, especially in other EU states.

To start with we can increase food production markedly simply by switching from meat to fruit and vegetable production domestically, in the modern world one can grow a sufficient amount of food to live as a vegetarian (meat eating driven by limited food supply). Secondly one should not underestimate the impact of local agricultural production. If you take a street with 100 gardens and have adequate preservation methods then one could provide a sufficient level of staple foods (potatoes, onions, carrots) to provide for said street for at least a month. Whether its an efficient use of time and resources on the other hand is the question.

Fair ones, but what of the other lines?


As below. With a limited budget one must give priority to economically productive assets such as the core cities.

So a regional hub model, rather than a ‘try to spread it around evenly among the rest’ approach, aye, makes sense


Indeed. I would take the counties containing the core cities and grant them much greater powers.

If tax is 0.5% in Luxemburg then unless you shave your own corporation tax to about that level.. if a company is going to avoid tax in the first place, they’re unlikely to be swayed by such a gesture, doesn’t make financial sense. At any rate, for me that kind of approach is a race to the bottom


Possible but lower tax rates have proven to bring in some additional revenue generally, how large the effect proves to be is the question.
Reply 91
Original post by Foo.mp3
The Eurozone probably needs it, many of their banks balance sheets are worrisome at best ~ imagine Italy will be the next big boy to run into trouble


Ahhhh your daily reply to keep this thread going.

And the US are still continuing it, mixed messages about withdrawing it.
Original post by Foo.mp3


There’s always time, if one is willing to make time

Perhaps I should stop bothering to reply to your posts, from what I’ve seen conjecturing on the weather appears more of a priority high brow stuff indeed! :tongue:


Ohhh. I do enjoy reading your replies, honestly - my problem right now is finding the time, I would LOVE to spend more time on here and get into detailed arguments. Alas, there is time for my own initial posts - just the followup that gets tricky. It would be sad if I didn't get to read any more of your responses though. :cry2:
Reply 93
Original post by Foo.mp3
Yes, we have one of the highest in the world, and we don't want to end up like Japan (highly developed finance sector, that is ostensibly their poison, now mired in debt and printing for fun)

Consumer debt is a sizable component of total debt, yes. Perhaps you are conflating total debt, or private debt (a component of total debt, of which household or 'consumer' debt is, in turn, a component), with public debt (another component of total debt)?


Foo wages will rise as the economy gets back on track, when business confidence begins to rise, businesses will begin to expand, thus increasing demand for workers and wages will rise.

Labours rhetoric at the moment is very populist and very dangerous IMO, the conservatives have Britain on the right track at the moment, I was a keen supporter of Tony Blair, but Mr Miliband is playing to populism to appeal to an idealistic left who thing wages can rise whilst bringing down unemployment, they won't.

Look at this artificial from the economist, look how well we are doing relative to the rest of Europe, for example we have lower unemployment and lower youth unemployment than Sweden.. London's economy alone is bigger than Sweden. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/11/european-economy-guide
Reply 94
Original post by Foo.mp3
QFA


Thought the UK was near the bottom of the pile in the top 20-odd developed nations in the numeracy/literacy stakes?


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356

I just went by this.

Singapore, a wealthy, orderly (Eastern culture), city state, is hardly comparable unfortunately (even if the UK is becoming an ostensive city state!)


Sure but this model is scalable i believe. Especially when one considers how small the current private school population is and still how small a proportion of the overall student population would get a place.

That would hamper capital raising for the (vastly) expanded capacity you spake of an alternative might be to cap returns to investors, rather than fees (something I proposed re: the energy market profiteering ‘problem’)


I imagine they could just raise fees on the paying parents, most private schools are charities however so there is not a significant return to investors. Instead its my understanding that the money goes on pay and facilities.

It takes more than time, it takes creating the right conditions, including housing market conditions that we appear unable to get right in general, never mind when it comes to encouraging a healthier societal ‘mix’ ~ very difficult to fathom what these are, let alone engineer, and in some cases simply impossible e.g. Western-devout Muslim assimilation ~ and a degree of luck (certain peoples spontaneously deciding that they no longer care to segregate/ghettoise themselves too much)


Sure but we are mainly addressing the worst of the problem in the social housing sector and that can be dealt with for a generation or two.

I’m not sure I agree with the conception, nor with the inference (what’s wrong with selling something for below the market price if it sufficiently satisfies the profit motive and takes some of the pressure out of demand so long as it goes to a family whom genuinely are in need of a home?)


I'm not against selling things below market price (infact i dislike politicians who pander to increasing house prices) but as i say below the problem is in not enough rented accommodation.

I do not disagree, however longer term: greater home ownership is beneficial/preferable, where sustainable, for a host of socioeconomic reasons


Indeed and the right to buy is one way to allow this.

It’s scarcely taking place at all tbh. GovT went to sleep on this’n after Thatcher :rolleyes:


Indeed, sadly this was one of Thatcher's mistakes (not dealt with by any subsequent government).

There are times i wish i was still ignorant, i used to view her as a god. Sadly however many of her policies had no depth in terms of the vision around them.

Would be interesting to see how that would pan out.. e.g. ethnic minorities being packed off up to deprived, remote areas of Scotland to satisfy a top down wishful desire to ‘spread them out a bit’ :holmes:


Well if we attached it to new house building (building 10 on the end of 100 private homes and then applying the allocation regulation) then most would still be in the south east although your right that their would be a bigger geographical spread.

Unfortunately people like to live in the midst of those they identify with, so they will always self-select over time, along lines of identity. Until we’re all mixed race, Godless people, with 2.4 children, living under the red flag (equal income status, lower socioeconomic distinction), segregation will likely continue to increase


Over time yes but we can deal with the worst of it now for at least a generation or two.

Think they prefer to treat each instance as an opportunity to play political football, and to consult with their (political, financial) support base, before making a decision purportedly on social and economic grounds. This is where ‘Democracy’ is an ass


Yes, indeed.

Yup, doesn’t help, although I do have confidence that the political classes are more scrutinised/accountable (not just by the media/courts, but by the general public too) than ever before just wish the Machiavellian oligarchic ****s would allow us to have PR! :angry:


I do quite like the coalition so PR would not be something i'd dislike. With that being said i don't think coalition overwhelmingly changes anything and i'm wary of the increased support for the Greens and Ukip resulting from PR.

For people struggling with either/both, they are still a reality dude, although I take your point that the housing crisis is relatively grave


Yes indeed but my point is that any costs you cut from housing will present a far larger proportional benefit than tackling food costs.

Fair point, expect a lot of the food we import comes from Europe, but that would likely be the case (albeit perhaps to a slightly lower degree) without CAP in place tbh (lower opportunity cost of land use, larger farms/lower costs, slacker environmental standards/enforcement etc)


Yes but the point is that we don't need CAP. It's already cheaper to produce in Poland than the UK and since all EU countries that enter get the benefit of CAP the benefits to British agriculture (if you even subscribe to their being a net benefit) are diminished each time the EU expands.

Nice in principal but again perhaps not terribly pragmatic, outside of an authoritarian utopia :tongue:


Sure but politics is hypothetical after-all and in regards to the authoritarian utopia i would point to studies suggesting that post-war rationing led to the most nutritious diet in British history, largely because of the increased vegetable consumption (and likely additional nutritional information).

Again, nice in principal but what of the opportunity (financial & utility) cost of labour/land use?


There's little opportunity cost in terms of land and minimal financial cost. Your correct to question the opportunity cost of labour however given the number of working people. Point remains however that if we needed to, we could.

Women are encouraged to work these days.. not stay home digging up spuds :mmm:
Reply 95
Original post by Foo.mp3
:h:

Aye, the whole tapering rumour shenanigans are doing little to help anyone stateside.. what a palaver! :rolleyes:

I worry what will happen in that country when it all unwinds :s-smilie:


Unwinds?
Are things really that bad? Really? Personally I think not. Pubs are still relatively full, people still smoke. Infact, I've said this before; many people who smoke are in the lower working class band. So they can afford to smoke 50 a day but need a food bank? Place on top of this the amount of new cars on the road I really don't think things are this bad. The only thing I think is pricy are rental prices. Which are literally through the roof. (Excuse the pun)
Original post by Foo.mp3
Not sure detailed arguments are necessary, we probably agree on most of this hippy **** as it doesn't concern liberal ideals of the head-in-sand persuasion :holmes:

You'll just have to make more time for me and reply to my satisfaction then sugar :wink:


"Heads in the sand"?? "Liberal ideas??" Moi?? :colone:

I will try, anyway. :bebored:
Reply 98
Original post by Foo.mp3
QFA


Aha. Think that is more education provision/conditions centred, than quality of basic skills outcomes centred. Apparently we’ve slipped again in the later regard :s-smilie:


Interesting. Personally i wonder if mandating further study of Maths and English is one answer (at A level) in addition to a longer school day and changing the school terms (a month in summer and a month in winter rather than the 6 weeks and 2 weeks currently). We also need to find a way to change attitudes to compete with Asians who study 10 hours per day ect..

Yup. Given the allocation of whatever it is (< c.10% catered capacity) that would put enormous pressure on places would defo need fee increase caps in place! You could actually get existing state institutions being bought up/taken over in a desperate bid to cater for expansion of demand (and hence to justify the inculcation of policy in the first place, as without sufficient expansion in places it’s unlikely to help raise standards among those ‘on the outside’), bet that would go down well on the left! haha (they won't even entertain the notion of grammar schools making a come back)


Yes, i imagine given the opportunity that free schools in particular would opt for grammar school or private status. I'm wary of over expansion however as it's primarily to allow the brightest children a step up in life, we don't want to dilute the private system with people of only moderate ability (sounds harsh i know). The primary benefit outside is that the state can better focus on struggling pupils, those with say D/C/B grade potential are not really helped by any system bar the grammar system.

The left are indeed somewhat of a hindrance but we're talking hypothetical here so i have my majority.

Somcharity execs get scandalous amounts.e . my old man once moaned about how the guide dogs charity are literally drowning in cash and their execs got paid more than he did (and he was a high level director in the private sector who worked hard, all the hours God gives)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10232004/72-per-cent-increase-in-executives-paid-over-100k-a-year-at-best-known-charities.html


Interesting. I imagined that charities paid their staff well but i always imagined them putting lots of money back into the business rather than paying huge executive salaries and bonuses.

In certain parts of the country I agree. More generally, we need more house building, particularly around the hubs you mentioned

Yup, just as long as, as I’m sure you’d agree, one rental property isn’t simply taken off the market without being replaced by another by the local authority

Little political capital in addressing long term issues, particularly those tied up with fortunes and phony-platforms for bearishness and ‘stability’ in the city (sorry Gordon, Tories)


Indeed, which is why i would devolve the power to the counties containing core cities (make them London assemblies effectively).

Yes, that's what i meant.

One must lend context to retrospective analysis, watertight, well evidenced, social and economic policy and judgement were still something of a pipedream in that era it took the Thatcher government to finally realise/decree that market interference, or ‘demand management’, is often absolute folly. That is a very important lesson, one that people on the left unfortunately seem to have forgotten since 2008 in the UK, and in the USA: the Fed keeping base rates low for prolonged periods, earlier in the decade


Oh yes. I can't fault the principles of her actions and i previously viewed her as a god for it. It's just that over time i have come to realise that she was not overly good at assessing the long term effects and implementing a solution (somewhat like IDS and the bedroom tax). The downside to these policies is that by not considering the long run marginal social cost they have potentially disastrous effects after the initial short term desired effect (my parents moved to avoid the bedroom tax so it does work in some cases).

Interesting how a social policy professor commented on BBC AA t’other day how most of the Eastern Europeans had spread themselves out and gone where the work, typically appropriate to their skill set, is (in the countryside, manual work). I suppose among some groups there is a willingness to settle wherever, however many economic migrants, and indigenous youths (once they get to a certain age), tend to gravitate towards the hubs you mentioned eh so top down policies concerning dictating where those who are unable to fund their own housing costs shall live, well.. wouldn’t go down too well and in a sense is tantamount to reducing labour mobility and trapping a (presumably sizable) proportion of these people in poverty

Flipside is, it’s simply not on for families of unemployed/low income people to be living in very expensive parts of town at the taxpayer’s expense. The BBC (News?) did a little feature on a migrant family doing exactly that in Islington maybe a year ago or so and if it was supposed to generate sympathy for them/their ilk it singularly failed to do so; our dependency/expectancy culture in this country reached frankly disturbing levels under New Labour.


Well if we stick with the add on policy i alluded to previously then the restrictions it imposes really depend on the difference in movement between the native home owning population and the renting immigrant population since the policy does essentially let the home owning market decide where housing will be (so it's not strictly an interventionist policy, it simply follows the owners market).

Yes i agree. I blame such a culture on being an already wealthy country (5th richest if you include the Eurozone as one) but also having the attitude that we must accept we are in relative decline. Essentially i think the country has the attitude of a pensioner whereby they expect to be looked after but don't want to intervene or play a major role in world affairs because 'we've done our bit'.

Personally however i feel this attitude as a whole is not good. We need a lean state and to play an important role in global affairs, we need to drop this notion that we are in decline when actually the UK and Anglosphere as a whole are all seeing growing populations against a backdrop of pending population collapse in Europe, China and Russia so in both direct and indirect terms we have a lot to play for. If we play our cards right there's a good chance that we will drop no lower than 9th by 2050 and be the nominally richest country with a population below 100m.

Why are you wary? We need a GovT that is actually willing to act on long-view matters of national and global security/concerning the fabric of those realms

Those of us who feel the Lib dems or Tories have sold us out (as a nation, not just as individual voters) on matters like tuition fees, the environment, immigration, E.U. membership, must be able to be heard and no I don’t just mean heard in terms of writing to our MPs or turning up at their surgeries to bend their ears without effectively kissing our votes goodbye e.g. by handing Labour seats by protest voting for Greens/UKIP out of frustration/to send a clear signal

For this reason, as well as others, the first past the post system is anti-democratic, and its continuation, and all attempts by the political elite to ensure it remains, tantamount to cartel/mafia shenanigans


I'm wary because both parties are full of ideological nutjobs who would either crush business or have a nationalistic ejaculation, "better the devil you know" when there's not a shred of pragmatism in the Greens or Ukip.

I do consider a PR an improvement and can see the advantages even for the Tories (a section will go to Ukip but what's left will be more my flavour) but i don't consider PR to be leading us to the rose garden and can see Ukip and the Greens seeing gains.

Yup. Certainly a great deal for the newcomers in that regard. Balances out a bit in that we seem to suck up a lot of their labour mind :s-smilie:


Given how little labour is required for any developed agriculture industry i don't think we're really depriving them, especially when the newer EU countries tend to have higher unemployment than the UK anyway.

Wondered how long it’d be before a Tory decided that another war with Germany was the answer to all our problems! :laugh:

Opportunity cost in terms of forgone utility people deride utility from the enjoyment of their gardens for other uses e.g. the quintessential British lawn, patios and decks, flowerbeds, ponds and features etc

Naturally; again, should we ever war with Germany again it may well come to this! :tongue:

Spoiler



Ha. Not to sound meglomanic however i'd actually ally with Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, Finland and then invade Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Small populations that can be easily overrun with high mineral wealth means that the cost-benefit analysis would look pretty good. :colone:

That's true but the relative value they deride from that is likely low for the majority of people hence the opportunity cost is relatively small.

Spoiler

I know I am not going to be the first or the last to say this but I hate David Cameron.

He is the main reason why everything has gone more expensive and the fact that more people over from 2012 and 2013 have had to go to food banks because they can not afford to go and get food is ridiculous.

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