UK unis fingerprinting foreign students to check attendance

Obviously unhelpful: alienating a minority to address a problem in a minority. And alienating is right - I'd be very unhappy at being repeatedly fingerprinted as part of my university experience. We make tremendous soft power gains through higher education and this seems only a step backwards.

Reply 25

Tuya

4

Original post by Milostar

I'm a little surprised that response so far have been so pragmatic about it :tongue:

Does this mean that you're generally ok with biometric monitoring?

It seems unfair that foreign students are singled out. Even if home students are freer to skip lectures, some classes require attendance, and I'm sure attendance data would be useful for universities, so why not introduce it for everyone instead of just one group?

Totally agree with this

Reply 26

Original post by Mayden

I have to fingerprint to clock in and out of work. (British Citizen) so I don't see why people shouldn't have to do it for lectures and stuff?

But if you're going to fingerprint students to see if they're keeping to their visa, why not just fingerprint all students to see that they're keeping up with their contact hours, etc?

Because local students aren't legally bound to attend a certain number of hours.

Reply 27

Original post by CJKay

Because local students aren't legally bound to attend a certain number of hours.

But foreign students at the University of Oxford and the LSE are. Still neither of these is implementing the model because neither feels at risk of government sanction. The fault here is with these universities that are making a de facto admission that they let in almost anyone showing a willingness to stump up at least the first installment on the fees.

Reply 28

Original post by cambio wechsel

But foreign students at the University of Oxford and the LSE are. Still neither of these is implementing the model because neither feels at risk of government sanction. The fault here is with these universities that are making a de facto admission that they let in almost anyone showing a willingness to stump up at least the first installment on the fees.

Let's be honest though, foreign students attending LSE or Oxford are highly unlikely to be here to abuse the system. I'm sure their administration are well aware of that, but for places like London Met... well, you know how that went for them.

Reply 29

Original post by CJKay

Let's be honest though, foreign students attending LSE or Oxford are highly unlikely to be here to abuse the system. I'm sure their administration are well aware of that, but for places like London Met... well, you know how that went for them.

that's exactly it. So what the universities should be doing is trying to be a bit more like the ones with nothing to worry about rather than trying to artificially safeguard against being the next London Met...

Reply 30

Aoide

11

Sounds fine to me.

It isn't unfair targeting because UK students don't have to turn up to lectures. If they are paying for the course but not learning no body cares. If you come over here on the condition that you are studying then t is reasonable to expect you to show up.

Reply 31

Original post by Aoide

Sounds fine to me.

It isn't unfair targeting because UK students don't have to turn up to lectures. If they are paying for the course but not learning no body cares. If you come over here on the condition that you are studying then t is reasonable to expect you to show up.

I think no-one is suggesting that [non]attendance shouldn't be monitored, only questioning whether this is the only or best way about it. It's a legal requirement that British children attend school but we don't fingerprint the kids to ensure the law is upheld.

Perhaps in the future biometric data management will seem more normal, this when the fingerprint has replaced the PIN at the bank or your front door key. At the moment, or at least to me, it has an ineluctable association with suspicions of criminality.

Americans, Australians, Japanese will be doing their nut. But how could the system possibly be arranged that they could be opted out of it? Just seems misbegotten.

Reply 32

Mad Vlad

Original post by Oh, me! me.

Of course it is. Anybody can fake a signature.

How has this got anything to do with invasiveness though. It's simply non-repudiation.

Reply 33

officelinebacker

Original post by Mayden

I have to fingerprint to clock in and out of work. (British Citizen) so I don't see why people shouldn't have to do it for lectures and stuff?

But if you're going to fingerprint students to see if they're keeping to their visa, why not just fingerprint all students to see that they're keeping up with their contact hours, etc?

How about because for British nationals it is not a legal requirement for them to attend their lectures. While the University can choose to require attendance to be at a certain level and could implement punishments if students failed to attend enough of their contact hours, there would be no legal repercussions for the student if they failed to attend.

However for foreign students, who are here on a study visa, it is a legal requirement for them to be attending their course, therefore it is far more important that their attendance is monitored, as if they fail to attend then they are legally in the wrong.

Reply 34

xoxAngel_Kxox

21

I think it's a great idea, but shouldn't just be for foreign students.

At my uni, you had to sign in every day, but it was just a piece of paper, so anybody could sign anyone else in. There was literally no point in it at all. At least fingerprints mean you have to actually be there.

Reply 35

Original post by cambio wechsel

that's exactly it. So what the universities should be doing is trying to be a bit more like the ones with nothing to worry about rather than trying to artificially safeguard against being the next London Met...

That's hardly a realistic expectation. The number of students eligible for university would significantly decrease, thereby reducing their income and as a result keeping them at the level they are now. The only way a university can improve is by improving its image, but at that point even London Met doesn't look that bad.

Reply 36

Aoide

11

Original post by cambio wechsel

Perhaps in the future biometric data management will seem more normal, this when the fingerprint has replaced the PIN at the bank or your front door key. At the moment, or at least to me, it has an ineluctable association with suspicions of criminality.

Americans, Australians, Japanese will be doing their nut. But how could the system possibly be arranged that they could be opted out of it? Just seems misbegotten.

To you this may be the case but there really isn't any reason biometric data is any more accusing or intrusive than a signature, but it is certainly more practical. I've had jobs which require finger prints to sign in as well as using it in school libraries and many other places.

As to whether other nationalities care I don't see why this is relevant. If the British people and relevant unis decide this is the route they want to take foreign students need to just take it or leave it. I don't remember the USA, Australia and Japan running their decision past me. We don't need to make our decisions to please other countries. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean they need a way to opt out. If they have that much of an issue study elsewhere. When they come here they need to follow our rules.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 37

Original post by CJKay

That's hardly a realistic expectation. The number of students eligible for university would significantly decrease...

that surely is what we want - that the students recruited are identified as those better off getting their degrees than disappearing under the radar to work in sweatshops - and it is here that the universities should be doing the due diligence, rather than employing an after the fact prophylactic against government condemnation.

Original post by Aoide

As to whether other nationalities care I don't see why this is relevant. If the British people and relevant unis decide this is the route they want to take foreign students need to just take it or leave it. I don't remember the USA, Australia and Japan running their decision past me. We don't need to make our decisions to please other countries. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean they need a way to opt out. If they have that much of an issue study elsewhere. When they come here they need to follow our rules.

the thing with 'take it or leave it' is that we cannot afford to have them choose to leave it. International higher education is increasingly a key industry in the UK, and more than that is an important source of soft-power. We're in cut-throat competition with Australia, New Zealand and other providers of English medium degrees and alienating international students in order to serve short-term populist sentiment is misbegotten.

Reply 38

Original post by cambio wechsel

that surely is what we want - that the students recruited are identified as those better off getting their degrees than disappearing under the radar to work in sweatshops - and it is here that the universities should be doing the due diligence, rather than employing an after the fact prophylactic against government condemnation.

Given the shortage of jobs and high unemployment rate at the moment, especially amongst graduates, that seeems incredibl counterproductive.
I go to an ex-poly - I got **** grades at A-Level - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the opportunity to get a degree. The time I was supposed to spend studying for my A-Levels I was instead studying for my career and actually, thanks to relatively low grade requirements, I'm now ahead of most others.

There are plenty of universities that realise grades rarely tell the full story, but unfortunately those are the ones are much more likely to be exploited. It doesn't mean they should completely disregard their philosophy, but they should do something to address the problem... so they are. My primary and secondary schools both had fingerprinting and I see no reason a university shouldn't either.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 39