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Transferring into 2nd year of a Law LLB in another university
Currently, I am a 1st year student at Birkbeck, University of London and to be honest, the course isn't what I really expected at first. Of course I admit that sh*tty lecturers and seminarists can be found anywhere and everywhere, even in the likes of Oxbridge or Russell Group universities, but then, there's a stretch between having one or two not so good lecturers/seminarists and having your lecturer/seminarist telling you straight to your face that they won't bother going over your work because they don't actually have the time to do so. I have considerer every pathaway, including dropping out and going to a Spanish university and doing my SATs to get into an American univeristy, which would mean getting a 4 year bachelor degree (major/minor, with the minor being dropped after the 2nd year) and then going on to Law School. To be honest, I have scratched the idea of dropping out seeing I already took a gap year (where switched from PPE to Law).
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Queen Mary
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
KCL
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Queen Mary
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
KCL
(edited 10 years ago)
Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is your question here?
Original post by returnmigrant
Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is your question here?
Nah, it is alright
Besides, I didn't make myself really clear. What I was wondering is that if I finally decided to transfer to the above mentioned universities, realistically speaking, what are my chances to achieve an unconditional place?I don't think King's accepts transfer student though I know Queen Mary is willing to do so (their requirement is not high either, an average of 50% of year one modules).
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry). Good law schools normally don't allow transfer.
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry). Good law schools normally don't allow transfer.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by HyperInSugar
Currently, I am a 1st year student at Birkbeck, University of London and to be honest, the course isn't what I really expected at first. Of course I admit that sh*tty lecturers and seminarists can be found anywhere and everywhere, even in the likes of Oxbridge or Russell Group universities, but then, there's a stretch between having one or two not so good lecturers/seminarists and having your lecturer/seminarist telling you straight to your face that they won't bother going over your work because they don't actually have the time to do so. I have considerer every pathaway, including dropping out and going to a Spanish university and doing my SATs to get into an American univeristy, which would mean getting a 4 year bachelor degree (major/minor, with the minor being dropped after the 2nd year) and then going on to Law School. To be honest, I have scratched the idea of dropping out seeing I already took a gap year (where switched from PPE to Law).
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Kings College (LNAT required)
City University
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Kings College (LNAT required)
City University
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
Sounds like you're not happy at all. Are you sure that you have assessed your interaction with tutors correctly? My experience was the complete opposite there - incredibly supportive and eager to know me and go over my work. If you can prove yourself in your first year and get firsts throughout there shouldn't be a problem transferring.
Original post by AndrewSimmon
I don't think King's accepts transfer student though I know Queen Mary is willing to do so (their requirement is not high either, an average of 55% of year one modules).
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry).
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry).
I agree with this too. I have to tell you though, having been at UCL for a couple of months now.. there is no difference in the teaching. So perhaps you need to think it may not be the school but rather your relationships with those tutors.
Original post by HyperInSugar
Currently, I am a 1st year student at Birkbeck, University of London and to be honest, the course isn't what I really expected at first. Of course I admit that sh*tty lecturers and seminarists can be found anywhere and everywhere, even in the likes of Oxbridge or Russell Group universities, but then, there's a stretch between having one or two not so good lecturers/seminarists and having your lecturer/seminarist telling you straight to your face that they won't bother going over your work because they don't actually have the time to do so. I have considerer every pathaway, including dropping out and going to a Spanish university and doing my SATs to get into an American univeristy, which would mean getting a 4 year bachelor degree (major/minor, with the minor being dropped after the 2nd year) and then going on to Law School. To be honest, I have scratched the idea of dropping out seeing I already took a gap year (where switched from PPE to Law).
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Kings College (LNAT required)
City University
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
Due to my willingness to transfer, I am trying to do my best and go for a First in order of making up for my not so spectacular IB grades (33 points...which is pretty much average and needless to say, not nearly enough for most Law courses), and even going as far as taking a Criminal Law module via the Open University, as most universities only accept transfers into qualifying Law degrees (LLB) if you have all the credits and seeing I don't actually do the Criminal Law module at my current course, it would either be ending up in a Law BA or altogether starting from year 1 in another LLB course in most universities.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
On another note, I have emailed various universities and visited a couple belonging to the University of London, which means my application is the following:
2nd year entry:
Exeter
Kings College (LNAT required)
City University
SOAS
1st year entry:
UCL (+ LNAT)
Law is a self-study subject. If the lecturers are not too helpful (it is very common, I was once told by my lecturer that they simply relied on themselves when they were reading their law degree), go and read a few treatises and journals by yourself. That's why we usually tell the others we read a law degree.
I suggest you don't waste time on your application in that if you can achieve a first you should definitely stay in your own school, particular Birbeck isn't that bad in terms of it's reputation. I'd say a first in Birbeck triumphs a second in any university that you've mentioned. There's no reason for you transferring to other universities if you can manage yourself to get a first in your own school. On the other hand, you won't stand a chance to be considered by UCL/KCL unless you achieved an extraordinary result which defined you as a very special case. But as aforementioned, you shouldn't leave if you're such eminent.
Lastly, do a bit more research. The following English law schools don't accept Year two entry:
Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL, Birmingham, Durham, Manchester, Bristol, Warwick, Nottingham.
SOAS seems only accept students doing UoL external LLB to transfer to their full-time law course.
(edited 10 years ago)
I've been told that City don't accept transfers, you might want to check that though.
I don't think someone would be able to transfer without a reference from their current university- regardless of their current grades.
Try to understand that university lecturers and tutors probably have next to no time to actually address your issues outwith the lecture, tutorial, and office hours.
If you can afford to do a B.A. in the U.S. and then go on to a J.D. then by all means do so, but judging by your grades and the university you are at I suspect that you may struggle to make that a success.
You are in the first year of your degree- not even into the second half of the year -and so I'm not sure why you expect them to be able to write anything about you on your behalf. The attitude you are talking about is a genuine one and not one aimed at fobbing you off; you are only a year into your degree and so not only do they have little to nothing to say about you, but you barely have your foot in the door and you already want out! Why would they help you when you are probably going to have to apply as a high school applicant anyway?
I understand fully that universities and academic staff can make things difficult if you want to do something out of the norm, but your current university is not there to facilitate your moving to another university unless there are serious reasons for doing so.
Honestly though, you are talking about pushing for a first and complaining about lack of attention from the tutors and lecturers. If you can get a first then do so and stop complaining about it.
Original post by HyperInSugar
Currently, I am a 1st year student at Birkbeck, University of London and to be honest, the course isn't what I really expected at first. Of course I admit that sh*tty lecturers and seminarists can be found anywhere and everywhere, even in the likes of Oxbridge or Russell Group universities, but then, there's a stretch between having one or two not so good lecturers/seminarists and having your lecturer/seminarist telling you straight to your face that they won't bother going over your work because they don't actually have the time to do so.
Try to understand that university lecturers and tutors probably have next to no time to actually address your issues outwith the lecture, tutorial, and office hours.
I have considerer every pathaway, including dropping out and going to a Spanish university and doing my SATs to get into an American univeristy, which would mean getting a 4 year bachelor degree (major/minor, with the minor being dropped after the 2nd year) and then going on to Law School. To be honest, I have scratched the idea of dropping out seeing I already took a gap year (where switched from PPE to Law).
If you can afford to do a B.A. in the U.S. and then go on to a J.D. then by all means do so, but judging by your grades and the university you are at I suspect that you may struggle to make that a success.
Furthermore, I have been unable to convince any of my tutors at university to write my UCAS reference, as they barely know me and most of whom have an attitude that can be basically summed up in the following sentence: "well if you don't like it, then why don't you just drop out?". Which has finally led me to resorting on asking my Head of Sixth Form to write my reference and thus act as my referee.
You are in the first year of your degree- not even into the second half of the year -and so I'm not sure why you expect them to be able to write anything about you on your behalf. The attitude you are talking about is a genuine one and not one aimed at fobbing you off; you are only a year into your degree and so not only do they have little to nothing to say about you, but you barely have your foot in the door and you already want out! Why would they help you when you are probably going to have to apply as a high school applicant anyway?
I understand fully that universities and academic staff can make things difficult if you want to do something out of the norm, but your current university is not there to facilitate your moving to another university unless there are serious reasons for doing so.
Honestly though, you are talking about pushing for a first and complaining about lack of attention from the tutors and lecturers. If you can get a first then do so and stop complaining about it.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by AndrewSimmon
I don't think King's accepts transfer student though I know Queen Mary is willing to do so (their requirement is not high either, an average of 50% of year one modules).
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry). Good law schools normally don't allow transfer.
Honestly speaking, with regard to your academic background, I don't think you will even obtain an offer from UCL/KCL, let alone unconditional offer. Even the likes of Warwick, Nottingham, Manchester refuse to take transfer student into their law courses.
Your first semester result will be an essential part of your application. If you achieve an overall 70%, UCL/ KCL may be willing to process your application to next stage (I mean year one entry). Good law schools normally don't allow transfer.
Honestly, I am realistic enough to know what my limitations are in this case. Transfers are hard, specially in such a competitive undergrad as Law. So if I have some chance of restarting from year one at the likes of UCL/KCL, then it is not to bad. Of course, my chances might be cut short by my not so brilliant grades at IB, but hey, what do I lose trying? Besides I had already planned to do so at UCL and I wasn''t even aware that KCL didn't allow any transfers.
Original post by tabshiftspace
Sounds like you're not happy at all. Are you sure that you have assessed your interaction with tutors correctly? My experience was the complete opposite there - incredibly supportive and eager to know me and go over my work. If you can prove yourself in your first year and get firsts throughout there shouldn't be a problem transferring.
I consider myself a rather optimistic person, so this whole stuff is actually managing to affect me rather badly, as I am stressing unnecesseraly over this when I should be focusing on other things. I haven't had any support from my tutors or from my law school so far, to be honest. Although technically they don't even know me well enough to write my UCAS reference, what I don't get is why I have to pay 9000 pounds to get 8 hours of lectures and seminars during the afternoon per week. It is a mixture of everything, to be honest. I am not seeing the value for my money, I am finding out that I actually learn more from my own reading than from any lectures, and I fail to understand how a seminatist can literally say to my face that she won't bothered correcting up the work I do because she doesn't have the time to do so. My lectures are 55 minutes for heaven's sake! Of course I know I cannot really expect Oxbridge-alike lecturers, which run for 2 hours and 30 minutes, but at least a weekly lecture of 1 hour 30 wouldn't be too hard for a course that supposedly claims to be "full-time", as we are getting the same amount of contact hours than those in "part-time". Most definetely, I know I didn't sign up for this.
QUOTE=michael923;45096631]Law is a self-study subject. If the lecturers are not too helpful (it is very common, I was once told by my lecturer that they simply relied on themselves when they were reading their law degree), go and read a few treatises and journals by yourself. That's why we usually tell the others we read a law degree.
I suggest you don't waste time on your application in that if you can achieve a first you should definitely stay in your own school, particular Birbeck isn't that bad in terms of it's reputation. I'd say a first in Birbeck triumphs a second in any university that you've mentioned. There's no reason for you transferring to other universities if you can manage yourself to get a first in your own school. On the other hand, you won't stand a chance to be considered by UCL/KCL unless you achieved an extraordinary result which defined you as a very special case. But as aforementioned, you shouldn't leave if you're such eminent.
Lastly, do a bit more research. The following English law schools don't accept Year two entry:
Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, KCL, Birmingham, Durham, Manchester, Bristol, Warwick, Nottingham.
SOAS seems only accept students doing UoL external LLB to transfer to their full-time law course.
While I agree that Law is pretty much a self-taught subject, and that you can actually learn more from your reading than from any lecturer, I still feel that I am not being challenged to perform at my best. I admit that I am using this whole transfer business as a motivator to perform as best as I can, because otherwise and knowing myself, I would have probably end loosing my interest by the third week. I am a person who needs to feel pressured in order to deliver work better, and the only way of doing so is asking my sister at Oxford to send me her constitutional law essays questions for me to do on my own time, which are incredibly helpful. I feel that in order to learn well, someone needs to be challenged by that subject in particular. And let's be honest. I am not being challenged at the moment.
Sorry if I sound like I am rambling, but sadly, English is not my first language and I am trying to be as clear and as concise as possible. Trust me, I have done my research and I mentioned quite clearly in my first post that my intention was applying for first year entry at UCL, as guess what? I went there and asked and it was quite clear that I would only be considered for first year entry. I sent an email to King's admission and I still received no reply. And seeing I am currently in Spain due to my reading week, at the moment, I haven't really been able to go and ask about their transfer policies. So thank you very much for enlightening me. I actually don't mind if I do not stand a chance against other applicants for UCL/KCL. I lose nothing trying and honestly, I am painfully aware that I don't have any exceptional circumstances. Only a set of grades that while being equivalent to AAB, are not taking into consideration because most universities neglect many non- A-Level applicants by them ridiculous entry requirements. SOAS does actually allow for transfers coming from Birkbeck. Their policy does demand at least a 2:1 or 200 credits in first year modules to even stand a chance of transferring into the second year, and that's subject to the availability of places. So yes, I did inform myself quite well and while I don't actually doubt that you were trying to be honest, at least ask before jumping into assuming something else.
All the best to your application and I wish you can make it.
Although Michael Mansfiled, QC was not educated from a top-tier law school (not even as good as yours), he still managed to become an eminent lawyer under that learning atmosphere. For me, I could always encounter many rigorous challenges when I read a few more books. I am not saying classmates' ideas are not brilliant but normally their arguments have, no matter how eloquent they are, already been contemplated deeply, both positively and negatively, by the leading scholars and judges who have spent their whole life in those particular areas. For example, Atiyah vs Trietel in contract law.
Neither did I strongly hold that you couldn't get a first in UCL/ KCL (my reasoning is simply based on your IB performance and so will the admission tutors do the same when they assess your application) nor did I get you wrong about your preference for second year entry (if you take a look at the subject title of your thread).
I used to share a similar situation with you when I were studying my sixth form many years ago. Now, I definitely won't do that again:
1) Repeating is not good to your CV especially in a highly competitive legal market. In the eyes of the employers, you spent four years to complete a three-year course.
2) If you are going to spend four years, is it a good idea to finish a bachelor in Birkbeck (3 yrs) and then pursue a master (1 year) in a very good institution, says Oxbridge, to compensate the gap between you and other fresh graduates from top law schools? This saves your time, money and enhances your job prospect.
Finally, best wishes to you!
Although Michael Mansfiled, QC was not educated from a top-tier law school (not even as good as yours), he still managed to become an eminent lawyer under that learning atmosphere. For me, I could always encounter many rigorous challenges when I read a few more books. I am not saying classmates' ideas are not brilliant but normally their arguments have, no matter how eloquent they are, already been contemplated deeply, both positively and negatively, by the leading scholars and judges who have spent their whole life in those particular areas. For example, Atiyah vs Trietel in contract law.
Neither did I strongly hold that you couldn't get a first in UCL/ KCL (my reasoning is simply based on your IB performance and so will the admission tutors do the same when they assess your application) nor did I get you wrong about your preference for second year entry (if you take a look at the subject title of your thread).
I used to share a similar situation with you when I were studying my sixth form many years ago. Now, I definitely won't do that again:
1) Repeating is not good to your CV especially in a highly competitive legal market. In the eyes of the employers, you spent four years to complete a three-year course.
2) If you are going to spend four years, is it a good idea to finish a bachelor in Birkbeck (3 yrs) and then pursue a master (1 year) in a very good institution, says Oxbridge, to compensate the gap between you and other fresh graduates from top law schools? This saves your time, money and enhances your job prospect.
Finally, best wishes to you!
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by ade2112
HeySorry I know that I am 5 years late. But I am in a similar situation, did you get into any of the second year entry Universities?Thank you
Hi ade2112,
Did you have any success? I am thinking of doing the same thing.
Nicola
Original post by Nicola Harris
Hi ade2112,
Did you have any success? I am thinking of doing the same thing.
Nicola
Did you have any success? I am thinking of doing the same thing.
Nicola
You need to contact Admissions at the Unis you wish to transfer into for advice
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