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    I'm currently looking into American school massacres and one of the thing I notice is that the kids are outcasts, bullied, and spend hours on end playing video games, some fantazied with guns, some could have had mental health issue, even Breivek spent his time on MW2 to train.

    But what drives these kids to lose control and do something as horrific as that?
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    Who knows- if we understand why they do it we'd have to be just as messed up ourselves


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    Most of these shooters were loners,didn't have many friends and most probably suffered some sort of abuse from other kids, which drove them to commit crimes like this.

    Truly is a tragedy.


    ....


    read the thread title and not your post, my bad.
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    There is no evidence any of those things is a cause of people wanting to shoot up schools, they may be 'symptoms' of school shooters, but statistically the percentage of video game players that shoot people is extremely small, which is why Fox News etc sound idiotic when they claim video games or Batman or whatever caused a shooting. Similarly there are plenty of outcasts and bullied kids in America, again very few go around shooting people. Whilst having access to guns makes it easier for a kid to shoot in America there are again millions of gun nuts in America that don't start shootings. It's hard to say what causes it because I expect there is a very complicated set of circumstances that leads kids to shooting others at school, there's probably hundreds of factors that lead to it.
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    'People' is the wrong word. It's young men who are going on shooting sprees. Why? Because they have nothing to live for.

    American society is failing many young men, who turn to things like drugs, alcohol, porn or computer games, or in the most extreme cases, gangs, suicide or shooting sprees. Society doesn't care about low status, young men, so these men will continue getting a raw deal, and some will unleash their anger and frustration in very unfortunate ways.
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    The least privileged people in the West are young, ugly men.

    I sympathise with the shooters greatly.

    This guy seemed to have valid concerns about femnazism for instance:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_L%C3%A9pine

    Forgive the mistakes, I had 15 minutes to write this. See also Annex.

    Would you note that if I commit suicide today 89-12-06 it is not for economic reasons (for I have waited until I exhausted all my financial means, even refusing jobs) but for political reasons. Because I have decided to send the feminists, who have always ruined my life, to their Maker. For seven years life has brought me no joy and being totally blasé, I have decided to put an end to those viragos.

    I tried in my youth to enter the Forces as an officer cadet, which would have allowed me possibly to get into the arsenal and precede Lortie in a raid. They refused me because asocial [sic]. I therefore had to wait until this day to execute my plans. In between, I continued my studies in a haphazard way for they never really interested me, knowing in advance my fate. Which did not prevent me from obtaining very good marks despite my theory of not handing in work and the lack of studying before exams.
    Even if the Mad Killer epithet will be attributed to me by the media, I consider myself a rational erudite that only the arrival of the Grim Reaper has forced to take extreme acts. For why persevere to exist if it is only to please the government. Being rather backward-looking by nature (except for science), the feminists have always enraged me. They want to keep the advantages of women (e.g. cheaper insurance, extended maternity leave preceded by a preventative leave, etc.) while seizing for themselves those of men.
    Thus it is an obvious truth that if the Olympic Games removed the Men-Women distinction, there would be Women only in the graceful events. So the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier. They are so opportunistic they [do not][73] neglect to profit from the knowledge accumulated by men through the ages. They always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus, the other day, I heard they were honoring the Canadian men and women who fought at the frontline during the world wars. How can you explain [that since][74] women were not authorized to go to the frontline??? Will we hear of Caesar's female legions and female galley slaves who of course took up 50% of the ranks of history, though they never existed. A real Casus Belli.
    Sorry for this too brief letter.

    Marc Lépine

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    (Original post by drake10)
    '
    American society is failing many young men, who turn to things like drugs, alcohol, porn or computer games, .
    **** im guilty of all four, have I been failed by the UK?
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    (Original post by Snakebite)
    I'm currently looking into American school massacres and one of the thing I notice is that the kids are outcasts, bullied, and spend hours on end playing video games, some fantazied with guns, some could have had mental health issue, even Breivek spent his time on MW2 to train.

    But what drives these kids to lose control and do something as horrific as that?
    Every young person plays video games, what has that got to do with anything? That's like saying that violence in Medieval times was the result of people playing too much backgammon. It was just the usual leisure activity for people with a lot of free time on their own.

    The reason for 90% of school shootings is teens with preexisting vulnerabilities, be they mental health problems or otherwise, being brought up in an environment where gun use was encouraged, and being turned into an outcast by alienation or bullying. If there is one universal cause of school shootings, its easy access to guns. Without that, there are zero school shootings, only suicide and in very very rare cases violence by other means which barely cause enough fatalities to make headlines.

    The only other factor that people tend not to consider is the feeling of permanence associated with alienation. They need to lose all hope for the future, either through delusions of grandeur convincing them life among inferiors is not worth living, or through a complex of isolation convincing them that they will never be able to live a normal life, and the blame for that lies with their peers. School shootings tend to be meticulously planned, and more common among people with reasonably supportive families than abusive parents, so there is a clear necessity of a long, stable duration of these conditions. I suspect a lot more people plan school shootings than carry them out, because adolescence can change so quickly stability is rarely maintained for long.
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    ^The accessibility of owning a gun for self-protection in a certain dangerous neighbourhood is already a problem itself. I don't know what goes through their minds, because in a documentary i watched they said the kid appeared normal and popular as the class clown but the appearance of the school did look bleak. That could have a large contribution to their emotional state and inclination to retire to their video game obsessions, which is an outlet i do believe feeds their confidence to go out to shoot someone.
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    If there were zero access to guns, then shootings would not occur. However, no possible gun restrictions in the U.S. will diminish that access for several decades. The problem is more immediate than that solution. The most common factor present amongst the perpetrators of school shootings is being the recipient of bullying. The untold story of Columbine is that Klebold and Harris were bullied. The victims they chose, were the ones they perceived to be responsible or complicit in that abuse. I am certainly not suggesting that their victims had it coming. I am suggesting that the possible repercussions of bullying to all involved should be discussed.

    Mental illness is an epidemic. Many children suffering from mental illness go undiagnosed or untreated. Due to their affliction, they become obvious targets for bullies. This results in a already fragile person feeling alienated and humiliated. Suicides are not uncommon. However, the villains of Columbine offered some, a slightly different option. They made these lost souls believe that they could reclaim some portion of their dignity, by expanding such a drastic action as suicide into murder. Such is a failure of logic. However, if successful they never get the opportunity to realize that failure. With this in mind, I will tell my children. That intentionally provoking the mentally ill, is comparable to poking a wild animal. Perhaps the more prudent will gain an additional incentive, not to bully.
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    It's just their society. I hate guns and think they should be banned, but American society breeds excess in every respect.

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    (Original post by Copperknickers)
    Every young person plays video games, what has that got to do with anything? That's like saying that violence in Medieval times was the result of people playing too much backgammon. It was just the usual leisure activity for people with a lot of free time on their own.
    Or like saying that people become whores by playing pac man, or become plumbers high on mushrooms after playing mario
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    If there were zero access to guns, then shootings would not occur. However, no possible gun restrictions in the U.S. will diminish that access for several decades. The problem is more immediate than that solution.
    And you think that the problem of social atomisation and the tendency of adolescents to pick on people they percieve as weak can be solved before then?

    The most common factor present amongst the perpetrators of school shootings is being the recipient of bullying. The untold story of Columbine is that Klebold and Harris were bullied. The victims they chose, were the ones they perceived to be responsible or complicit in that abuse.
    I remember reading that they were never bullied, in fact they were bullies themselves, though they were occasionally subject to abuse for their clothing and the belief that they were gay.

    Mental illness is an epidemic. Many children suffering from mental illness go undiagnosed or untreated. Due to their affliction, they become obvious targets for bullies. This results in a already fragile person feeling alienated and humiliated. Suicides are not uncommon.
    Most school shooting perpetrators with mental health problems had them diagnosed and were being treated. Although its a little difficult to quantify that since most of them are dead and so their mental health was never properly looked into.

    However, the villains of Columbine offered some, a slightly different option. They made these lost souls believe that they could reclaim some portion of their dignity, by expanding such a drastic action as suicide into murder. Such is a failure of logic. However, if successful they never get the opportunity to realize that failure. With this in mind, I will tell my children. That intentionally provoking the mentally ill, is comparable to poking a wild animal. Perhaps the more prudent will gain an additional incentive, not to bully.
    Frankly, I don't have a lot of sympathy with bullies whose victims hit back, but with most school shooters there has not been serious bullying, and even if there has they kill or attempt to kill more than just the bullies.
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    I don't think it is an issue of availability of guns, it's more to do with mental health and also the failure of the systems to build an inclusive society.

    If there wasn't easy access to guns then something else will be used as a weapon most likely bombs or dirty bombs or something along those lines.
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    young men, not people.

    several factors:

    - america's violent culture
    - easiness of getting guns
    - mental health issues
    - men being prone to ignore emotional problems because of their instincts and societal rules
    - a lot more men have issues being social introverts, autistic, etc
    - testosterone which increases the level of violent behavior
    - many of these guys were forever alone's who were treated like **** by most women, sexual frustration building up for years and years (psychological and physiological) is a huge issue for many young men. constant humiliation and complete loss of any self worth as a man will make one of them snap once in a while.
    - last but not least, a society that expects much more from men in terms of achieving (job importance, social status, wealth) and having certain traits (charisma, being funny, being confident, being smart, being interesting, romantic, adventurous, ambitious and another 400 things i can't be arsed to type or remember ) while the other sex is worshiped simply for not eating like a pig and painting their face. btw this is also why young men are one of the highest risk groups for suicide (probably the highest), they feel like they've failed and everything is lost.


    of course not all of them are affected by the sex issues or the status issues but if you combined a few of these things the ball starts rolling


    this also happens in nature to some extent. the most dangerous animals are the rejected, frustrated beta males. have you ever seen young male elephants knocking trees down and flipping other animals in the air while having a hard on? i bet they wish they could buy an AK from walmart too.
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    Anger, and a lot of it.

    The reasons why generally vary.
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    (Original post by Copperknickers)
    And you think that the problem of social atomisation and the tendency of adolescents to pick on people they percieve as weak can be solved before then?



    I remember reading that they were never bullied, in fact they were bullies themselves, though they were occasionally subject to abuse for their clothing and the belief that they were gay.



    Most school shooting perpetrators with mental health problems had them diagnosed and were being treated. Although its a little difficult to quantify that since most of them are dead and so their mental health was never properly looked into.



    Frankly, I don't have a lot of sympathy with bullies whose victims hit back, but with most school shooters there has not been serious bullying, and even if there has they kill or attempt to kill more than just the bullies.
    I wrote a rebuttal to each point, but then I deleted it. I didn't really agree with my own points. Perhaps you are mostly right. I was drinking when I wrote the post. I think the reasons very as much as the people responsible do. The only common factor is that all are seeking some attention or notoriety when committing these acts. Cheers,
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    (Original post by AWJChadders)
    Who knows- if we understand why they do it we'd have to be just as messed up ourselves


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    People are always afraid of what they don't understand.
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    (Original post by Alfissti)
    I don't think it is an issue of availability of guns, it's more to do with mental health and also the failure of the systems to build an inclusive society.
    Exactly. A quick point, we have very easy access to petrol in the UK, a highly explosive and flammable substance that could easily be used by any disgruntled nutjob to turn a school full of children into a deadly inferno in minutes. And yet it doesn't happen. Why is that, the means to do it are there? Could it be that British society simply doesn't produce the kind of people with the inclination to go and indescriminately murder large numbers of school kids? Which raises the question, what is it about American society that does produce these kinds of people, on a seemingly fairly frequent basis?
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    I'd like to think anyone who commits mass murder has a mental health problem. They go for schools because they're cowards.
 
 
 
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