We should shut down the lower ranked universities and bull courses - debate Watch

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Xabier
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Yep I know now, you were beaten by 6 minutes.
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River85
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(Original post by PlsGimmeMBBS)
People studying their butts off at school and sixthform to go onto hard or useful-to-the-world courses such as medicine, dentistry, oxbridge degrees (hard, perhaps some bull subjects like classics tho), UCL, Imperial, engineering, law (unless at crappy unis like Uni of East London), english at Edinburgh etc AND those studying vocational courses at college like Plumbing, Engineering AND those going into employment are suffering for people who go to study at crappy universities such as Chichester, York St Johns, Bournemouth, Reading etc, who go to uni for the sake of it when they would probably be better off doing a vocational course at college or working.
Engineering is taught at university as well, you know. Find me a chartered engineering without a university degree.

Both get funding from the state, yet if the latter group where scrapped then the money saved could help those going on to study useful and respected stuff.

Discuss
You don't understand how university funding works.

(Original post by KingKumar)
Yes, I understand your point but you can't support it on a fact you've just made up or are unsure about. There is no course at Oxford related to films or media.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/postg...esthetics.html

You didn't say it has to be an undergraduate course. Although undergraduate modules are available for those in the English and Modern Languages departments.

I knew this would have been pointed out by now, but I don't think anyone has mentioned the undergraduate modules that can be studied, so the post will stay.
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hali0112
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(Original post by PlsGimmeMBBS)
People studying their butts off at school and sixthform to go onto hard or useful-to-the-world courses such as medicine, dentistry, oxbridge degrees (hard, perhaps some bull subjects like classics tho), UCL, Imperial, engineering, law (unless at crappy unis like Uni of East London), english at Edinburgh etc AND those studying vocational courses at college like Plumbing, Engineering AND those going into employment are suffering for people who go to study at crappy universities such as Chichester, York St Johns, Bournemouth, Reading etc, who go to uni for the sake of it when they would probably be better off doing a vocational course at college or working.

Both get funding from the state, yet if the latter group where scrapped then the money saved could help those going on to study useful and respected stuff.

Discuss
It's definitely a valid point. My flatmates study courses like criminology and events management and have no idea what job to go into with their degree after uni. They don't go to a red brick uni either. I wish schools would give their students better education on careers and not just push everyone into uni. The students then end up in lots of debt with a degree which may/may not be helpful.

I know its an old repetitive argument but why do unis offer such courses? Maybe such courses could be offered as A level subjects. I can't think of any other reason than to make money. There should be more central governance as to the number of places/types of courses on offer so people are not wasting their time and money and more careers guidance.

I definitely think vocational courses at colleges like building/ plumbing/ hairdressing/ electricians etc are useful and should be recommended and promoted to suitable students as a career route. Such students will have a useful practical qualification which will lead to a definite job and financial security. As opposed to a friend of a friend who works in Asda with a Law degree.
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PlsGimmeMBBS
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(Original post by mrsx512)
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Puts in a medical qualification in name
Posts thread bashing lower rank uni's.......

Troll and butthurt


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Is that why I am 2nd year?
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ThisIsn'tSpam
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In other words, you're saying that only a select group of people should be allowed to continue their education to a higher level.
I disagree.
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Egaffney
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I totally disagree, I received really good A Levels because I am one of those people the education system favours, I can memorise facts and I do not get stressed in exam situations. I am not necessarily very 'academic' I have just done well out of the individualist right wing education system.
I received offers from University of Sheffield and University of York both excellent academic Universities. I chose to go to Bournemouth because I thrive in a creative environment.
We already have a class system in Britain. This often defines how society views us. Why are we doing the same with university education?
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annievicvic
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(Original post by PlsGimmeMBBS)
People studying their butts off at school and sixthform to go onto hard or useful-to-the-world courses such as medicine, dentistry, oxbridge degrees (hard, perhaps some bull subjects like classics tho), UCL, Imperial, engineering, law (unless at crappy unis like Uni of East London), english at Edinburgh etc AND those studying vocational courses at college like Plumbing, Engineering AND those going into employment are suffering for people who go to study at crappy universities such as Chichester, York St Johns, Bournemouth, Reading etc, who go to uni for the sake of it when they would probably be better off doing a vocational course at college or working.

Both get funding from the state, yet if the latter group where scrapped then the money saved could help those going on to study useful and respected stuff.

Discuss
I'm wanting to study Psychology at York St John with hopes of becoming a psychologist after my degree. Am I wrong for doing so? Also, I'm predicted grades ABB at A level (potential to study at a Russell Group if I wanted to). Yet I still want to go to York St John uni because I feel that's best for me (I'm not a fan of elitism, therefore will not be applying to a traditional red brick such as The University of Leeds).

Regarding your point about contribution and usefulness to society etc, maybe you should look at yourself first. A person can have all the right qualifications and academic knowledge, but it can be so easily destroyed by a monstrous personality and narrow-minded views.

Thanks for your input, ****er
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PlsGimmeMBBS
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(Original post by annievicvic)
I'm wanting to study Psychology at York St John with hopes of becoming a psychologist after my degree. Am I wrong for doing so? Also, I'm predicted grades ABB at A level (potential to study at a Russell Group if I wanted to). Yet I still want to go to York St John uni because I feel that's best for me (I'm not a fan of elitism, therefore will not be applying to a traditional red brick such as The University of Leeds).

Regarding your point about contribution and usefulness to society etc, maybe you should look at yourself first. A person can have all the right qualifications and academic knowledge, but it can be so easily destroyed by a monstrous personality and narrow-minded views.

Thanks for your input, ****er
Not a fan on elitism? Well, you should be knighted, oh honorable one. Have fun competing with psychologists from UCL etc.
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PlsGimmeMBBS
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(Original post by Egaffney)
I totally disagree, I received really good A Levels because I am one of those people the education system favours, I can memorise facts and I do not get stressed in exam situations. I am not necessarily very 'academic' I have just done well out of the individualist right wing education system.
I received offers from University of Sheffield and University of York both excellent academic Universities. I chose to go to Bournemouth because I thrive in a creative environment.
We already have a class system in Britain. This often defines how society views us. Why are we doing the same with university education?
How snobby of you to suggest Bournemouth is more elite than Sheffield and York with regards to creativity.

Utter BS
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balotelli12
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Utilitarian barbarians will never understand the value of education for its own sake.

Just feel sorry for the narrow minded fools.
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nm9801
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(Original post by PlsGimmeMBBS)
People studying their butts off at school and sixthform to go onto hard or useful-to-the-world courses such as medicine, dentistry, oxbridge degrees (hard, perhaps some bull subjects like classics tho), UCL, Imperial, engineering, law (unless at crappy unis like Uni of East London), english at Edinburgh etc AND those studying vocational courses at college like Plumbing, Engineering AND those going into employment are suffering for people who go to study at crappy universities such as Chichester, York St Johns, Bournemouth, Reading etc, who go to uni for the sake of it when they would probably be better off doing a vocational course at college or working.

Both get funding from the state, yet if the latter group where scrapped then the money saved could help those going on to study useful and respected stuff.

Discuss
You know York St John is one of the leading universities for teaching?
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c471
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(Original post by Egaffney)
I totally disagree, I received really good A Levels because I am one of those people the education system favours, I can memorise facts and I do not get stressed in exam situations. I am not necessarily very 'academic' I have just done well out of the individualist right wing education system.
I received offers from University of Sheffield and University of York both excellent academic Universities. I chose to go to Bournemouth because I thrive in a creative environment.
We already have a class system in Britain. This often defines how society views us. Why are we doing the same with university education?
While I disagree with the OP, I have to pick up on this.

Bold 1) Memory is a key component of intellegence - arguably the most important factor. I have yet to meet a person I would deem intellegent, who has a particularily poor memory. At the fundamental level, memory is what differentiates performance in some top jobs. As say, a doctor, lawyer, engineer, actuary etc, it doesnt matter how logical you are, or what you can derive. What makes you good is that you can dredge out relevant principles to assess a situation. Nowadays, we can get computers to solve practically any problem given infinite time.
The top performers of the next few decades will be the ones who can, with a stroke of their pen, eliminate what is irrelevant, say what is likely to be significant, and to pursue from there. If I cannot remember much about my job, I will have to do the same process that a computer would do, probably taking much longer too.

You have clearly never held a (proper) job if you feel that assessing peoples recall alongside being able to make reasoned arguements is a bad thing. Same goes for the stress issue. You shall see when you hold a proper job, I would do my GCSEs day in day out compared with some of the stress that you career will throw at you. Assessing this is also no bad thing.

Bold 2) Individualist is completely correct. The objective of your education should be to teach you. The assessments should provide an accurate reflection of you as a candidate. If you favour some wishy washy group orientated assesment method, you will hold back the best, carry the worst and fudge the rest into a middle grey area. Again you will see at university what it is like to have important results depend on others.

It grinds my gears when people bang on about GCSE's & A levels being memory tests.
Nowadays you are allowed the book in the exam in something like english lit!
Not to mention I would suggest if you cannot remember fundamental facts and formula, you do not really understand the topic. I dont have a list of instructions when I drive, I'm sure you could name every song by your favourite band, sing along to all their songs, remember the minute details of your favourite tv shows or films etc, or recall scores of your football team for the past few years.
The issue is rarely not having the memory capicity to remember, but the inclination to put the effort in to learn it.

If anything, education is too dumbed down these days.

Bold 3) what use is an education system that isnt 'class based'. The classes are representative of intellegence and performance. It is unfair to devalue the degrees of the truely bright sparks in the system, and massaging the ego of the educational dunces does nobody any favours. Is it not more fair to give people accurate feedback so they can manage their expectations, rather than telling everybody 'You are all the best', so they go out into the world getting sacked and made redundant for the rest of their lives?
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Egaffney
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(Original post by c471)
While I disagree with the OP, I have to pick up on this.

Bold 1) Memory is a key component of intellegence - arguably the most important factor. I have yet to meet a person I would deem intellegent, who has a particularily poor memory. At the fundamental level, memory is what differentiates performance in some top jobs. As say, a doctor, lawyer, engineer, actuary etc, it doesnt matter how logical you are, or what you can derive. What makes you good is that you can dredge out relevant principles to assess a situation. Nowadays, we can get computers to solve practically any problem given infinite time.
The top performers of the next few decades will be the ones who can, with a stroke of their pen, eliminate what is irrelevant, say what is likely to be significant, and to pursue from there. If I cannot remember much about my job, I will have to do the same process that a computer would do, probably taking much longer too.

You have clearly never held a (proper) job if you feel that assessing peoples recall alongside being able to make reasoned arguements is a bad thing. Same goes for the stress issue. You shall see when you hold a proper job, I would do my GCSEs day in day out compared with some of the stress that you career will throw at you. Assessing this is also no bad thing.

Bold 2) Individualist is completely correct. The objective of your education should be to teach you. The assessments should provide an accurate reflection of you as a candidate. If you favour some wishy washy group orientated assesment method, you will hold back the best, carry the worst and fudge the rest into a middle grey area. Again you will see at university what it is like to have important results depend on others.

It grinds my gears when people bang on about GCSE's & A levels being memory tests.
Nowadays you are allowed the book in the exam in something like english lit!
Not to mention I would suggest if you cannot remember fundamental facts and formula, you do not really understand the topic. I dont have a list of instructions when I drive, I'm sure you could name every song by your favourite band, sing along to all their songs, remember the minute details of your favourite tv shows or films etc, or recall scores of your football team for the past few years.
The issue is rarely not having the memory capicity to remember, but the inclination to put the effort in to learn it.

If anything, education is too dumbed down these days.

Bold 3) what use is an education system that isnt 'class based'. The classes are representative of intellegence and performance. It is unfair to devalue the degrees of the truely bright sparks in the system, and massaging the ego of the educational dunces does nobody any favours. Is it not more fair to give people accurate feedback so they can manage their expectations, rather than telling everybody 'You are all the best', so they go out into the world getting sacked and made redundant for the rest of their lives?

1. I have a full time job working in a busy stressful office environment. Do not make assumptions. I would work full time and never do GCSE's again. I found being spoon fed and prioritised because I was 'intelligent' ridiculous, I would of preferred those teachers helping others pass their GCSE's and getting students C's rather than focusing on me getting A* in every subject. For what?

2. Individualist does not set you up for life experiences. I went to a very individualist school and the attitude was forget everyone else just focus on yourself. You are all that matters. You wont get very far in life with that lonesome attitude. You don't go through life alone so why is that told in schools? `People working together and interjecting ideas is where the real creativity and good ideas come from as everyone is different and has different perceptions ect..

3. If you are going to use examples know what you are talking about... this year I completed my english literature A Level, and guess what!?? We were not allowed to bring in the books therefore I had to memorise quotes from Dracula all short stories in the bloody chamber.. and 3 stories in the Canterbury tales which are in really old english. That was difficult.

4. Every child should be placed on an equal pedestal, no child should be prioritised over another. Of course some children will need special attention and they should get that, we shouldn't be writing off children , their intelligence and their future because they didn't get an A or they don't know their times tables, thats ridiculous. Surely telling a child they are crap over they are the best is setting them up for failure? Why try when nobody believes in you..
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c471
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(Original post by Egaffney)
1. I have a full time job working in a busy stressful office environment. Do not make assumptions. I would work full time and never do GCSE's again. I found being spoon fed and prioritised because I was 'intelligent' ridiculous, I would of preferred those teachers helping others pass their GCSE's and getting students C's rather than focusing on me getting A* in every subject. For what?
What role specifically - given you are apparently 19, just accepted onto a course at Bournemouth, I find it hard to believe you have a particularly stressful job (full time is not the same as a 'proper' career type job).

The fact you would say this tells me you havent had to deal with a stressful job.

What for is the fact that if we do not push able students, those students will not develop enough. Our education system should be just as responsible for developing the future leaders of knowledge as it should be about supporting the less able. The reason they should push the best is because innovation and progress is made by the brightest.
If you want biologists that cure cancer, clean fuels, safer roads, cleaner air, longer life expectancy and much more, you HAVE to push those who are capable of making these discoveries.
Why do you assume it is about a grade? Unless you were getting 100%, there was still an opportunity to further your understanding. You feel that we should stop when people reach a benchmark of performance?

Why is it important what grade they expect? Why is it silly for them to spend time trying to bump up your grade, but stupid when they dont do it somebody else? A C in most GCSE's is not going to go anywhere in that subject for that person. The difference between an A and A* can have material impact on a high performer.

2. Individualist does not set you up for life experiences. I went to a very individualist school and the attitude was forget everyone else just focus on yourself. You are all that matters. You wont get very far in life with that lonesome attitude. You don't go through life alone so why is that told in schools? `People working together and interjecting ideas is where the real creativity and good ideas come from as everyone is different and has different perceptions ect..
Ah, the creativity myth.
Firstly, you cannot be creative if you do not personally understand the topic. That is being carried by a team.

Secondly, you lambasted the right wing education system when in fact it was your school that caused the issue for you.

Thirdly, I beg to differ. Most medical students I have met got there by sitting in their room smashing the books. To get a job as a lawyer, engineer etc, you need good grades. Its a complete myth that you need to sit around talking to learn properly. How do you think research works? You dont just sit round and discuss and suddenly invent a new concept. It takes individual talent. There is a place for group work, and it shouldnt be omitted, but our education system shouldnt be built around it. Most traditional careers would fire you if you were not individually productive, regardless of your contribution to team dynamics.

3. If you are going to use examples know what you are talking about... this year I completed my english literature A Level, and guess what!?? We were not allowed to bring in the books therefore I had to memorise quotes from Dracula all short stories in the bloody chamber.. and 3 stories in the Canterbury tales which are in really old english. That was difficult.
When did I say A level? I was talking about GCSE's.

In how long? A year? I've had a job where I was expected to know the locations and configurations of around 100 burried service locations off the top of my head, within a fortnight of starting. There are plenty of jobs which require much more than this, hence why it is not inappropriate.
4. Every child should be placed on an equal pedestal, no child should be prioritised over another. Of course some children will need special attention and they should get that, we shouldn't be writing off children , their intelligence and their future because they didn't get an A or they don't know their times tables, thats ridiculous. Surely telling a child they are crap over they are the best is setting them up for failure? Why try when nobody believes in you..
We are not writing anybody off. We are making an evidence based decision about their abilities. If you get a D in maths, you will almost certainly never make it as a physicist for example.
Who said we should say they are crap? Firstly, they are nearly adult by the time they take GCSE's/ A levels, so are probably well aware they lack ability in certain areas. Why is it a negative to tell them the truth?
I cannot understand why you associate being given a true reflection of your ability amounts to saying 'we have no faith in you'. By your logic, sports couches should spend more time training me to be a pro basketball player, and telling me how great I am, despite the fact I am under 6ft and cant hit the hoop to save my life.
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Aj12
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(Original post by PlsGimmeMBBS)
People studying their butts off at school and sixthform to go onto hard or useful-to-the-world courses such as medicine, dentistry, oxbridge degrees (hard, perhaps some bull subjects like classics tho), UCL, Imperial, engineering, law (unless at crappy unis like Uni of East London), english at Edinburgh etc AND those studying vocational courses at college like Plumbing, Engineering AND those going into employment are suffering for people who go to study at crappy universities such as Chichester, York St Johns, Bournemouth, Reading etc, who go to uni for the sake of it when they would probably be better off doing a vocational course at college or working.

Both get funding from the state, yet if the latter group where scrapped then the money saved could help those going on to study useful and respected stuff.

Discuss
I went to one of those uni's. Whilst applying for Graduate schemes my application was accepted by leading firms in the tech industry, aviation, manufacturing, agencies in the public sector and others. Where I got my degree did not matter, what I got from my degree, the skills I could apply to the job and how I presented myself was what was important. You could go to Oxbridge but if you cannot apply the skills you got there good luck getting a job.

This idea prevalent on TSR that you have to go to a top ten uni or you are worthless is getting tiresome
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CM19
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I have said this story and I will say it again.

My fiancee got all C's and. D's at GCSE and double D at A level. He has done an undergraduate at University of East London and Masters at Kent. He is now doing a fully funded PhD in electronic engineering with aims to research and get himself a professorship sometime during his career.

I went to a grammar school and got all A*/A's at Gcse and decent A levels but am nowhere near as successful as him.

Generalisation on this forum is TERRIBLE.

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Coral Reafs
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l0l, those subjects that u don't like is actually fun and enjoyable for alot of others.

And I hope those courses are there to stay as if they weren't I would probably lose out on my place to study at the "respectable" uni as you say to very intelligent people who study the courses you don't like.

u wasteman :facepalm:
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John Stuart Mill
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(Original post by techno-thriller)
Only maths,physics,chemistry,biology and medicine and engineering should be taught.
What are your justifications for that? Here's how i'd lay out a curriculum

The objective disciplines
Mathematics, (Including formal linguistics and logic)
Astronomy
Physics, (Including earth sciences)
Chemistry,
Biology (psychology would be reduced to biology and could be studied as well)
Sociology (when I speak of sociology in this sense I mean any discipline concerned with society that is rigorous and quantitative, e.g economics, the sociology of Durkheim, anthroplogy and archaeology).

The professions
Education
Theology (important for religious communities)
Law
Medicine (includes dentistry),
Engineering (also including architecture),

The more subjective disciplines - literature, classics, philosophy, music, art etc would be available to study but not to obtain degrees in, they would be reserved for students of other disciplines eager to engage with the more artistic side of life and reserved for people that can afford it.
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(Original post by John Stuart Mill)
What are your justifications for that? Here's how i'd lay out a curriculum

The objective disciplines
Mathematics, (Including formal linguistics and logic)
Astronomy
Physics, (Including earth sciences)
Chemistry,
Biology (psychology would be reduced to biology and could be studied as well)
Sociology (when I speak of sociology in this sense I mean any discipline concerned with society that is rigorous and quantitative, e.g economics, the sociology of Durkheim, anthroplogy and archaeology).

The professions
Education
Theology (important for religious communities)
Law
Medicine (includes dentistry),
Engineering (also including architecture),
.
Occupational Therapy? Physiotherapy? Speech and Language Therapy? Town Planning? Surveying? Are these include as subjects allied to medicine (or architecture)?
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the mezzil
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(Original post by Egaffney)
I totally disagree, I received really good A Levels because I am one of those people the education system favours, I can memorise facts and I do not get stressed in exam situations. I am not necessarily very 'academic' I have just done well out of the individualist right wing education system.
I received offers from University of Sheffield and University of York both excellent academic Universities. I chose to go to Bournemouth because I thrive in a creative environment.
We already have a class system in Britain. This often defines how society views us. Why are we doing the same with university education?
What? You think York and Sheffield are not "creative environments"?

Pleaseeee, don't make me laugh.
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