Kenneth Clarke and Harriet Harman your views? Watch

Rational Thinker
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...roversies.html

http://metro.co.uk/2009/08/03/harrie...crunch-314590/

Hello I enjoy refusing to allow politicians to conceal their past criticisms and so would be grateful if you gave me your views on these articles and whether they are true about their respective candidates.

Personally, I think both Clarke and Harman are deeply prejudiced individuals but I could be wrong.
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Pastaferian
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Interesting links. I can see why my parents are such big fans of Kenneth Clarke, even if they'll never vote Conservative in a month of Sundays.
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by Pastaferian)
Interesting links. I can see why my parents are such big fans of Kenneth Clarke, even if they'll never vote Conservative in a month of Sundays.
Personally I find them both a bit abhorrent I still think Clarke has fascist tendencies and Harman is one of the most contemptible people I have ever encountered she is desperately trying to silence criticisms of her and her fellow politicians.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/201...nal-regulation
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Rational Thinker
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Bump.

I did not realise how corrupt Harman was until I viewed this video.
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meenu89
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I don't like Ken Clarke because he is a Europhile but other than that he is tolerable. I just hate Harriet Harman, she is just so awful it's unbelievable.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
Personally, I think both Clarke and Harman are deeply prejudiced individuals but I could be wrong.
I've met Harriet, she's a very sensible, calculating and pragmatic politician, I have a lot of respect for her.
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
Bump.

I did not realise how corrupt Harman was until I viewed this video.
Oh come on, claiming a few hundred pounds here and there for things that are actually reasonably justifiable. I'm guessing you've never been to the Middle East or Russia
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
I've met Harriet, she's a very sensible, calculating and pragmatic politician, I have a lot of respect for her.
Even after this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet...Ps.27_expenses

and this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHmnkmRoW0s

She seeks to stop the press from informing us about MP's expenses and blames the credit crunch on males (she was strongly criticised for the misandrist statement by both women and men).

While I respect and value your opinion, it is my personal belief that Harman stands contrary to both the original values of the Labour party and the values of a free society generally.
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nulli tertius
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I think he is too old for her.
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Oh come on, claiming a few hundred pounds here and there for things that are actually reasonably justifiable. I'm guessing you've never been to the Middle East or Russia
I enjoyed taking apart that troll xaki90 with you earlier but we must disagree on this. Harman is at best taking liberties with the ideas of "reasonable expense" and is at worse corrupt. She is not alone in this Conservatives and many Liberals are also at fault as well as New Labour. However as someone who values the concept of a free and open society, I find Harman's views completely alien to these. Miliband has done a good move by firing the racist cancer that was Diane Abott, he should follow it up with the misandrist Harman.
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Lady Comstock
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That's one sandwich i'd enjoy being a part of.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
While I respect and value your opinion, it is my personal belief that Harman stands contrary to both the original values of the Labour party and the values of a free society generally.
She cops a lot of flack from right-wing idiots purely because she's a woman, they giggle about juvenile name-calling like "Harperson", and reserve no criticism whatsoever for ****wits like Alan Johnson or crooks like Peter Mandelson.

Harriet is my constituency MP and I also have a professional link to her, and I know personally that she's a very smart woman and actually quite a nice person. Frankly, I don't go in for the idiotic and automatic politician-hatred that you get on the far-left and far-right, and from lazy apathetic, apolitical people.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
I enjoyed taking apart that troll xaki90 with you earlier but we must disagree on this. Harman is at best taking liberties with the ideas of "reasonable expense"
Specifically which expense do you take issue with? Which of Harriet's claims do you oppose? Put your money where your mouth is
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
She cops a lot of flack from right-wing idiots purely because she's a woman, they giggle about juvenile name-calling like "Harperson", and reserve no criticism whatsoever for ****wits like Alan Johnson or crooks like Peter Mandelson.

Harriet is my constituency MP and I also have a professional link to her, and I know personally that she's a very smart woman and actually quite a nice person. Frankly, I don't go in for the idiotic and automatic politician-hatred that you get on the far-left and far-right, and from lazy apathetic, apolitical people.
Well I am not a "right-wing idiot" and have nothing against female Mp's. However claims of sexism cannot be used to stifle discourse. To attempt to silence the press in their reporting of Mp's expenses, essentially making Mp's immune to the freedom of information act as Harman has done is cryptofascist. She is also technically a criminal in terms of petty acts as well having frequently gone above the speed limit as well as having lied about statistics, so she does play fast and loose with rules and regulations, eg trying to impose them on others while trying to avoid having to fulfil them herself. That she can appear individually personable is not surprising, that is something the worst dictators in history have managed to achieve.
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Specifically which expense do you take issue with? Which of Harriet's claims do you oppose? Put your money where your mouth is
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...stination.html

Well there is this. However with Harman it is more the case that she has tried to in the past stop the press reporting expenses claims. Surely the whole idea of Mp's is that they are supposed to be accountable!
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
Well I am not a "right-wing idiot"
Not saying you are, but most of the criticism of Harriet comes from that quarter.

However claims of sexism cannot be used to stifle discourse.
The question of sexism is reasonably raised because her "crimes" are so trivial and the vitriol so intense. Particularly when you hold her up against a male comparator in the parliamentary labour party.

To attempt to silence the press in their reporting of Mp's expenses, essentially making Mp's immune to the freedom of information act as Harman has done is cryptofascist.
It was ill-advised and it wasn't her idea. Shovelling someone else's **** is something professional politicians frequently have to do. You might learn about it if you're ever involved at that level.

She is also technically a criminal in terms of petty acts as well having frequently gone above the speed limit
What do you mean "as well as"? What crimes are you claiming she's committed, apart from infringing the speed limit?

so she does play fast and loose with rules and regulations
Which specifically? And are you still going to tell me specifically which of her expenses claims you object to? Or did you think you could distract attention from that flimsy assertion?

That she can appear individually personable is not surprising, that is something the worst dictators in history have managed to achieve.
You're comparing her to Hitler now? I think that means you lose the argument
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...stination.html

Well there is this
Wow. A £120 camera to be used for her constituency website. You really got her there.
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Not saying you are, but most of the criticism of Harriet comes from that quarter.



The question of sexism is reasonably raised because her "crimes" are so trivial and the vitriol so intense. Particularly when you hold her up against a male comparator in the parliamentary labour party.



It was ill-advised and it wasn't her idea. Shovelling someone else's **** is something professional politicians frequently have to do. You might learn about it if you're ever involved at that level.



What do you mean "as well as"? What crimes are you claiming she's committed, apart from infringing the speed limit?



Which specifically? And are you still going to tell me specifically which of her expenses claims you object to? Or did you think you could distract attention from that flimsy assertion?



You're comparing her to Hitler now? I think that means you lose the argument
Not true at all much criticism of Harman rightly comes from within the Labour party. Those crimes are concerning. From what I have read it was her idea she proposed the bill, however I am more than happy to be corrected if you have the evidence. The fact that she drove above the limit in a car on multiple occasions in some instances while holding a mobile phone, this indicates that she believes certain rules may not apply to her. I am not comparing her to Hitler merely that someone being personable does not make them moral.
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Rational Thinker
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Wow. A £120 camera to be used for her constituency website. You really got her there.
Any amount of unnecessary expenses is wrong.
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MostUncivilised
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(Original post by Rational Thinker)
Any amount of unnecessary expenses is wrong.
How was it unnecessary? It was for use for her constituency website, which is well within the rules and actually entirely reasonable.
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