Can we talk about the 40% PGCE drop out rate? Anyone here dropped out?

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eelnais
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This has been quite eye opening. I've wanted to be a teacher ever since I was four and that dream hasn't wavered, but the PGCE and NQT years are certainly going to be tough.
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lantan
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(Original post by Mr M)
I'll stick to telling the truth if that's alright with you.
It occurs to me your truth is really a subjective opinion.
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Mr M
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(Original post by Oliver Queen)
Air hostesses
Customer service reps
Tube supervisors
Traffic wardens
Police officers
What's your point? Aggression towards workers in these occupations will usually result in arrest.

(Original post by Oliver Queen)
Ever considered you may just be seen as a boring teacher so they play up in your lessons?
Children don't play up in my lessons. I haven't issued a single consequence in any of my classes this year. Children tend to target inexperienced teachers or those new to the school.

(Original post by Oliver Queen)
the corporate world, having worked in it for 2 years, is full of people like those in the Apprentice. They are on a mission to the top and will quite happily stab you in the back if needs be to get there. A few bad words here and there to the manager to try and sway his opinion.
I mistakenly thought you were suggesting this is the dynamic of the staffroom. For the most part, school teachers are pretty supportive of one another.

I fear that the person in question, Mr M, has had terrible experiences in his school and think everyone is like that and that they are the set example for children everywhere which couldn't be more wrong. Maybe its time he stopped generalising an entire sector of society on the basis of his life experiences because the world is bigger that what he has lived.
You couldn't be more wrong. I haven't had any terrible experiences. The standard of behaviour in my school is good and will probably be rated outstanding at our next Ofsted.

Here are a few links to Andrew Old's blog "Scenes From The Battleground" on the reality of teaching in a "bog-standard" state secondary school. This blog has been praised by Michael Gove on numerous occasions.

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...ting-terrored/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...ment-database/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...eacher-is-gay/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...-f-off-factor/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...i-dont-get-it/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...ent-exclusion/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...de-against-me/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...onality-clash/

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...9/06/charlene/

(Original post by Oliver Queen)
There are multiple learning styles and of course they exist. Another absurd statement.
(Original post by Oliver Queen)
There are numerous different learning styles and you have pointed out two of them. I have identified mine whilst at university. I find learning from lecture slides hard and I am more of a hands on learner and need to be practical and so on to learn. Finding out your own best methods of learning proves this does exist.
Andrew Old again:

http://teachingbattleground.wordpres...complete-arse/
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Oliver Queen
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(Original post by Mr M)
What's your point? Aggression towards workers in these occupations will usually result in arrest.
So can confrontation in the classroom if it gets out of hand.

Children don't play up in my lessons. I haven't issued a single consequence in any of my classes this year. Children tend to target inexperienced teachers or those new to the school.

I mistakenly thought you were suggesting this is the dynamic of the staffroom. For the most part, school teachers are pretty supportive of one another.
Fair enough.


You couldn't be more wrong. I haven't had any terrible experiences. The standard of behaviour in my school is good and will probably be rated outstanding at our next Ofsted.
Why the blunt pessimism then?

Just because Gove accepts these blog posts, opinions in fact, as credible sources, that doesn't mean to say I will. Do you have any scientific proof or true sources to back up your claims?

I know myself that learning styles exist. Talk all day to me in a lecture and I just won't get it. Let me get hands on with the programming language and see others implement it and I'll take it in. Im a visual learner.

Explain my learning style if they don't exist? Please enlighten me. You seem to have all the answers elsewhere.
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kpwxx
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(Original post by Mr M)
Yes - I didn't train to teach until I was in my mid 30s.



Adults who are verbally abusive are subject to arrest and prosecution. Schoolchildren are routinely let off and their teachers disciplined for failing to control the situation. Being told where to go by a Primary child is very different from a sinister 15 year old whispering they are going to rape your daughter and stab your wife (these threats were made to one of my colleagues before he went off with stress).



I was being facetious but my point was that professional educators are best placed to decide the content of a lesson - it should not be put to a classroom vote.
Most of the cases of people in shops that I know of being abused have been dealt with in a 'the customer is always right' way. I'm sure there are some arrests but I am also sure there is plenty of abusive behaviour which workers have to simply deal with. And like I said teachers get to work at the behaviour and if they are lucky make a change to it, and understand WHY the pupil is behaving in this way.

Sorry to hear your colleague had to endure that. I certainly agree that behaviour management at my level is very different to older primary which is very different to secondary school, and the behaviour issues I experience certainly don't make me feel anywhere near as bad as that kind of abuse would. This is one reason I don't think I would be cut out for Secondary teaching. But at the end of the day I think if you can find a good principle then you can let it flow through the whole age range of pupils (for myself I really agree with emphasising the pupil's choice and the fact that consequences are results of their actions, and looking at the developmental needs of the child, nurture etc). I will say though that the particular example threat you made seems like something which should have been reported to the police anyway?




Regarding learning, I guess we just have VERY different views on education. I am an Early Years educator. I am very very passionate about the Early Years ethos and strongly believe it's the way to go for education. Obviously this is very much my personal opinion. Because of this my classroom and my teaching is extremely child led. I don't see education as me being some super person who knows lots and the children being some inferior beings who need to have teaching done to them. I see it as me helping children to discover how they can learn, giving them access to knowledge and skills and encouraging them to probe deeper and understand things more. All the things which I am trying to teach them are things which naturally as human beings they want to learn and understand anyway, so I am an enabler not a director.

xxx
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Mr M
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(Original post by Oliver Queen)
...
A 'Learning Styles' FAQ in case you are genuinely interested:

http://www.danielwillingham.com/lear...tyles-faq.html

Daniel Willingham's book is available from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Dont-Stu...der_047059196X
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Oliver Queen
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(Original post by Mr M)
A 'Learning Styles' FAQ in case you are genuinely interested:

http://www.danielwillingham.com/lear...tyles-faq.html

Daniel Willingham's book is available from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Dont-Stu...der_047059196X
I am interested yes. I am not meaning to come across as having a go but I am genuinely interested.
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Mr M
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(Original post by Oliver Queen)
I am interested yes. I am not meaning to come across as having a go but I am genuinely interested.
I don't blame you for finding it hard to abandon the idea of learning styles as it sounds plausible but there is absolutely no peer-reviewed research that supports it. The fact schools and universities embraced something with no evidence base is shocking but would come as less of a surprise to you if you knew of some of the other preposterous schemes we have had to endure. Brain Gym is one of the most famous examples.
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zterpzterp
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I have found the words of actual teachers with experience on this thread very useful, less so the uninformed criticisms of them by aspiring teachers who think that they are in some sort of Hollywood inspirational movie.

I have been considering doing a PGCE this year despite the fact that I have a parent who taught MFL for years and hated it. To be totally honest my motivations probably come mostly from the fact that there are so few graduate opportunities available to me, I have a high 2.1 undergraduate in languages and an MA and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do if it isn't teaching. The fact that most of my fellow undergrads are either in very poorly paid work, unemployed or work as teachers made me think that perhaps the latter would be an okay option but I'm increasingly realising that teaching may not be for me.

Yesterday I did a lesson observation in some MFL classes at a reasonably good school ranked 'outstanding' by Ofsted and in each lesson, bar one Year 7 lesson, teachers were insulted, sworn at and asked nastily why they should be learning what they are learning. No one should have to put up with that.

I don't know if I could cope, clearly many don't. I'm not under the misapprehension that this was anything but typical, obviously on some days it gets a lot worse as well. At my observation placement teachers were really pleasant to me and accommodating, but not exactly what I would call happy. None of them really rated teaching as a profession and I'm not sure I would either.

What a terrible generation this is for entering the world of work. I wish I'd been born earlier, failing that I wish that I could go back and do vocational training rather than university.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by zterpzterp)
I have found the words of actual teachers with experience on this thread very useful, less so the uninformed criticisms of them by aspiring teachers who think that they are in some sort of Hollywood inspirational movie.

I have been considering doing a PGCE this year despite the fact that I have a parent who taught MFL for years and hated it. To be totally honest my motivations probably come mostly from the fact that there are so few graduate opportunities available to me, I have a high 2.1 undergraduate in languages and an MA and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do if it isn't teaching. The fact that most of my fellow undergrads are either in very poorly paid work, unemployed or work as teachers made me think that perhaps the latter would be an okay option but I'm increasingly realising that teaching may not be for me.

Yesterday I did a lesson observation in some MFL classes at a reasonably good school ranked 'outstanding' by Ofsted and in each lesson, bar one Year 7 lesson, teachers were insulted, sworn at and asked nastily why they should be learning what they are learning. No one should have to put up with that.

I don't know if I could cope, clearly many don't. I'm not under the misapprehension that this was anything but typical, obviously on some days it gets a lot worse as well. At my observation placement teachers were really pleasant to me and accommodating, but not exactly what I would call happy. None of them really rated teaching as a profession and I'm not sure I would either.

What a terrible generation this is for entering the world of work. I wish I'd been born earlier, failing that I wish that I could go back and do vocational training rather than university.
It is worth noting that not every school is like that. In the school I volunteer, kids are really nice (there are 2 or 3 that might be talk a bit but that's it). I guess one needs tons of resilience and tough hand.
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zterpzterp
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(Original post by Juichiro)
It is worth noting that not every school is like that. In the school I volunteer, kids are really nice (there are 2 or 3 that might be talk a bit but that's it). I guess one needs tons of resilience and tough hand.
It goes the other way as well, remember that I wrote that the school that I went to was rated outstanding by Ofsted. There are much worse schools, the experiences of my teacher parent is evidence of that - she has been physically attacked more than once while working and that is in addition to daily verbal abuse.
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Oliver Queen
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(Original post by zterpzterp)
I have found the words of actual teachers with experience on this thread very useful, less so the uninformed criticisms of them by aspiring teachers who think that they are in some sort of Hollywood inspirational movie.
I don't see anyone in this thread thinking that at all. What I see people alluding to is hope and being optimistic in their views rather than pessimistic and defeatist. Everyone knows teaching is a very hard profession in every aspect from emotional to legal. Its draining and its hard work trying to inspire and convince youngsters from all backgrounds that they should be learning this material as it will better their lives.

No one is arguing that point. Nobody said it would be a walk in the park but without hope, why bother? Without thinking you can make a difference why bother? You go out into the profession and you do your best and you slug away at it. You don't just generalise and make it sound all doom and gloom because it isn't always that way.

Do footballers just go out and accept they are playing a tougher team and accept defeat? Some do but they get nowhere then or they are limiting themselves. Others show passion, grit, determination and care and these often succeed and overcome the odds and hurdles put in front of them.

Every walk of life has its obstacles and teaching is no different but there's no need for all the doom and gloom either. I know plenty of happy teachers who get on well with class after class and have a new set of pupils every year. How so? They must be doing something right in a looked down upon state school to keep getting classes that look up to them and actually listen.

Not all children are the same as was said earlier on in this thread and the corporate world is just as bad. Go into banking and you'll soon see the verbal malice you have to put up with in that line of work as well. People will be people and do what needs to be done to better themselves, suit themselves and put a roof over the table.

Im all for listening to advice and I am all for accepting critiques of my teaching, my aims, my approach to different things but what I won't accept is a blanket generalisation of doom and gloom which is just a form of scaremongering based on previous experiences.

I've sat in schools where children do listen in Wales and I've sat in schools in Southern England where children do listen. Equally, I've sat in schools where there is less control and its harder. Thats life. One business to the next you'll get obstacles thrown at you.

If you think that isn't the truth then go and enter a graduate scheme and watch all the others trying to do what needs to be done to get to the top - women flirting with their bosses, women *****ing, men having favourites and promoting those that suit them rather than who's right for the job, men being as two faced as you're ever likely to see - one minute they're on your side, the next minute they'll push you on your way down.

I've seen it all myself and fortunately for me I was not the person involved as I was only an assistant but I've seen women breaking down behind an office desk because of other colleagues. I've seen women worried that their job is being thrown under the bus by someone else and they'll struggle to feed their kids etc. Not pleasant viewing by any stretch.

Im fully aware teaching is going to be tough but find a true profession out there that doesn't have to face struggles and problems and I'll buy you a pint. In web design you get clients trying to rip you off for work and change things and take the pee out of you. In software engineering the same thing. In hardware you get people making mistakes but blaming you for them.

If a pupil shouts some abuse then I will deal with it professionally within the confinements of the schools policy and the law. What they say to me will be water off a ducks back as I've heard a lot worse from web design clients who try and alter the scope of a project 30% of 75% through and then get nasty and in your face when you say 'its not in the contractual agreement so it will cost more'.
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zterpzterp
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What a load of ill-informed and platitudinous nonsense, much like the rest of your 'contributions' to this thread. Please consider deferring to people who have actually taught and so know what they are talking about.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by Oliver Queen)
I don't see anyone in this thread thinking that at all. What I see people alluding to is hope and being optimistic in their views rather than pessimistic and defeatist. Everyone knows teaching is a very hard profession in every aspect from emotional to legal. Its draining and its hard work trying to inspire and convince youngsters from all backgrounds that they should be learning this material as it will better their lives.

No one is arguing that point. Nobody said it would be a walk in the park but without hope, why bother? Without thinking you can make a difference why bother? You go out into the profession and you do your best and you slug away at it. You don't just generalise and make it sound all doom and gloom because it isn't always that way.

Do footballers just go out and accept they are playing a tougher team and accept defeat? Some do but they get nowhere then or they are limiting themselves. Others show passion, grit, determination and care and these often succeed and overcome the odds and hurdles put in front of them.

Every walk of life has its obstacles and teaching is no different but there's no need for all the doom and gloom either. I know plenty of happy teachers who get on well with class after class and have a new set of pupils every year. How so? They must be doing something right in a looked down upon state school to keep getting classes that look up to them and actually listen.

Not all children are the same as was said earlier on in this thread and the corporate world is just as bad. Go into banking and you'll soon see the verbal malice you have to put up with in that line of work as well. People will be people and do what needs to be done to better themselves, suit themselves and put a roof over the table.

Im all for listening to advice and I am all for accepting critiques of my teaching, my aims, my approach to different things but what I won't accept is a blanket generalisation of doom and gloom which is just a form of scaremongering based on previous experiences.

I've sat in schools where children do listen in Wales and I've sat in schools in Southern England where children do listen. Equally, I've sat in schools where there is less control and its harder. Thats life. One business to the next you'll get obstacles thrown at you.

If you think that isn't the truth then go and enter a graduate scheme and watch all the others trying to do what needs to be done to get to the top - women flirting with their bosses, women *****ing, men having favourites and promoting those that suit them rather than who's right for the job, men being as two faced as you're ever likely to see - one minute they're on your side, the next minute they'll push you on your way down.

I've seen it all myself and fortunately for me I was not the person involved as I was only an assistant but I've seen women breaking down behind an office desk because of other colleagues. I've seen women worried that their job is being thrown under the bus by someone else and they'll struggle to feed their kids etc. Not pleasant viewing by any stretch.

Im fully aware teaching is going to be tough but find a true profession out there that doesn't have to face struggles and problems and I'll buy you a pint. In web design you get clients trying to rip you off for work and change things and take the pee out of you. In software engineering the same thing. In hardware you get people making mistakes but blaming you for them.

If a pupil shouts some abuse then I will deal with it professionally within the confinements of the schools policy and the law. What they say to me will be water off a ducks back as I've heard a lot worse from web design clients who try and alter the scope of a project 30% of 75% through and then get nasty and in your face when you say 'its not in the contractual agreement so it will cost more'.
+1

P.S. Fluent in Russian and Mandarin? Really? :eek:
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Oliver Queen
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(Original post by zterpzterp)
What a load of ill-informed and platitudinous nonsense, much like the rest of your 'contributions' to this thread. Please consider deferring to people who have actually taught and so know what they are talking about.
What a pleasant individual you are.
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Mr M
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(Original post by Juichiro)
P.S. Fluent in Russian and Mandarin? Really? :eek:
Unfortunately real comic book superheroes don't frequent TSR.
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tory88
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This has been a very interesting thread to read, as someone applying for a PGCE this year and with an interview on wednesday. I think I'm pretty well prepared for what a career in teaching would entail - I am fully anticipating disruptive, abusive students; endless, frustrating paperwork; piles and piles of marking etc. But every time I've been in a classroom, I've really enjoyed the experience.

Even in situations where I've had to be the disciplinarian, or where an activity/lesson has been derailed, at the end of the day I still enjoyed things overall. I worry that perhaps I'm not motivated enough - for me it's not really about inspiring the scientists of tomorrow, more about an interesting, challenging career that I enjoy - but I figure that's normal. Ultimately, I won't know until I'm already in too deep to not count as one of the drop-out statistics, but if I was to make a bet, I'd say I'm likely to get through my training, and the next few years, and still want to continue in the profession.

I mean, if I can read through this thread and not be put off, I'm either meant to be a teacher or incredibly deluded.
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Shelly_x
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(Original post by tory88)
This has been a very interesting thread to read, as someone applying for a PGCE this year and with an interview on wednesday. I think I'm pretty well prepared for what a career in teaching would entail - I am fully anticipating disruptive, abusive students; endless, frustrating paperwork; piles and piles of marking etc. But every time I've been in a classroom, I've really enjoyed the experience.

Even in situations where I've had to be the disciplinarian, or where an activity/lesson has been derailed, at the end of the day I still enjoyed things overall. I worry that perhaps I'm not motivated enough - for me it's not really about inspiring the scientists of tomorrow, more about an interesting, challenging career that I enjoy - but I figure that's normal. Ultimately, I won't know until I'm already in too deep to not count as one of the drop-out statistics, but if I was to make a bet, I'd say I'm likely to get through my training, and the next few years, and still want to continue in the profession.

I mean, if I can read through this thread and not be put off, I'm either meant to be a teacher or incredibly deluded.
Speaking as someone who went into teacher training with this mindset, I have some advice. Be prepared for criticism. A LOT of criticism. You reallyyy need to be able to roll with the punches, especially in the first term. Be prepared for just how tired you will feel. I don't think you can actually fully anticipate how much the things you've mentioned will affect you physically and mentally until you've experienced it. Sure you can be aware of it, but the reality doesn't hit until you have to teach lessons when you're feeling knackered and knowing that when you get your feedback you're going to be pulled up on every little thing you did wrong and questioned on why it was wrong and how it could be better.
Seriously, it is exhausting.
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Mr M
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(Original post by Shelly_x)
Seriously, it is exhausting.
Dangerously exhausting. When driving in my NQT year, I can remember making a number of poor decisions at junctions that should have been enough to tell me to get off the road. One of my colleagues was so tired driving home just before Christmas in his NQT year that he fell asleep at traffic lights and awoke to find his car surrounded by people who thought he had had a heart attack and died.
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kpwxx
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(Original post by Oliver Queen)
.
Good post.

I will note as well that the poster you replied to said themselves that they are going in to teaching because they aren't sure what other reasonably paid role they should go in to. This for me says it all... Some people do get on ok like this as they find out when they get in to it that they actually really enjoy teaching, but realistically teaching is a very hard job. If your only motivation is pay then you're unlikely to be able to push yourself through tough times. If you actually really want to be a teacher for the sake of being a teacher then that is much more motivation. With everything in life we use our motivation to help us get through hard things, teaching is no different.

(Original post by Mr M)
I don't blame you for finding it hard to abandon the idea of learning styles as it sounds plausible but there is absolutely no peer-reviewed research that supports it. The fact schools and universities embraced something with no evidence base is shocking but would come as less of a surprise to you if you knew of some of the other preposterous schemes we have had to endure. Brain Gym is one of the most famous examples.
I think I can see the learning styles argument a bit more now from that Q&A. So the point is that taking in information and remembering (i.e. Learning) is not, as far as any evidence shows, affected by how the information is presented. If its presented written down, or verbally or whatever. Which I can happily believe unless some new evidence is found to the contrary. The only exception I could see is if you are for example bored so not listening properly, but then that's about motivation not about the method of communication itself (though this still links in with how you plan your teaching).

But what I'm thinking about is, after you've already taken in said information (learnt it), how do you make sense of it, form links and such. I go over information in different ways. Generally the way which helps me make sense of it is linked with the information itself rather than a preferred style for me personally.

Does that makes sense? Just trying to sort it out in my head. As with the poster above I am genuinely interested in figuring it out.


Also I agree with the above suggestion... Michael Gove being a fan the blog? I don't think he's the best person to show that it must be based on solid evidence lol.

Xxx





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