Is National Socialism inherently racist?

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demx9
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#1
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#1
I believe it can exist in a state that doesn't require racial descrimination; of course the term has been polluted by German nazism to such an extent where it is simply seen as a racist ideology.

I would like to remember the UK had a NS party before the II world war.
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TheFKY
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#2
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#2
Socialism itself isn't a racist ideology, as far as I'm aware — quite the opposite, as I often hear it referred to as radical equality. However, the term has been polluted as the period in which socialism was politically prevalent (the 1930s, I should believe) was molested with racist attitudes. For example, Nazism in Germany and discrimination against immigrants and African-Americans in the US.
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deehee
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No.
The Waffen-SS was a multi-ethnic and multi-national military force of Nazi Germany.
Some Jews were even fighting for Hitler, but it is disputed how many.
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MatureStudent36
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#4
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(Original post by deehee)
No.
The Waffen-SS was a multi-ethnic and multi-national military force of Nazi Germany.
Some Jews were even fighting for Hitler, but it is disputed how many.
You've made a very valid point there.

Political opinions are rarely negative in their outlooks. Even communism on paper seems very impressive. As always , the problem is how they're implemented. In trace of national socialism an enemy was needed in prefer to draw people away from their normal political beliefs towards the new belief, but when changing public opinion its always helpful to have a nasty man. For people like the SNP they try and portray the bad man as Westminster and the SE England, for communism the nasty man was the rich and for national socialism it was the Jew. Human nature is to blame somebody else for what's going wrong.

Reading up on national Socialism though it seems not a bad logic on paper, as does communism. But I think it will for ever be tainted by how the Nazis implemented it.

im always wary of an political party or movement that has nationalist or national in it.
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felamaslen
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#5
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National Socialism is anti-freedom, and as such, anti-humanity. It's one of the most evil ideologies ever. However, I don't think it is necessarily racist, or at least, I'm not willing to make that claim.
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gladders
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#6
(Original post by deehee)
No.
The Waffen-SS was a multi-ethnic and multi-national military force of Nazi Germany.
Depends when and on what terms. When the war started going against them, manpower shortages compelled them to recruit from what the Nazis considered to be of approximate (and in some cases what they considered to be of lesser) stock.

Some Jews were even fighting for Hitler, but it is disputed how many.
Again, really depends on the motivation of the Jews and the Nazis. Many Nazis, including the highest in power, used the racial background of senior people to keep them loyal. That in no way means Jews felt common cause with the Nazis or the Nazis felt in any way willing to give them a break. In fact, they found quite devious ways to force talent to work for them.
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That Bearded Man
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#7
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The nazis invented national socialism, they weren't even socialist, just thought it sounded like it would get more votes.

And yes, national socialism believes in a superior race, thus I believe that is classed as racism.
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Arbolus
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#8
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#8
National socialism is defined as the ideology of the Nazi Party. for which theories of racial hierarchy were all-important. I don't think it's possible to argue that it isn't inherently racist.

However, fascism in general doesn't have to be so. Mussolini's Italy rejected anti-Semitic policies for years until it became important to keep on Hitler's good side.
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demx9
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#9
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#9
(Original post by That Bearded Man)
The nazis invented national socialism, they weren't even socialist, just thought it sounded like it would get more votes.

And yes, national socialism believes in a superior race, thus I believe that is classed as racism.
nazis didnt invent NS, Britian already had a NS party in the past and it was later united with Labour, Nazis just stole the idea like they did with the Swastika
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John Stuart Mill
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#10
are we talking about left wing or right wing nationalism? regardless since both are nationalist they exclude other ethnic groups and supress minority identity, left nationalism existed long before (19c Germany) ironically Hegel (19c philosopher) has been criticised (by Karl Popper) as influencing their doctrines and being responsible for much of the mess in the 20th century; despite the fact he declared the German state dead (1798 the German Constitution) and a transition to the stage in which all humans have no national identity.
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demx9
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#11
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#11
(Original post by John Stuart Mill)
are we talking about left wing or right wing nationalism? regardless since both are nationalist they exclude other ethnic groups and supress minority identity, left nationalism existed long before (19c Germany) ironically Hegel (19c philosopher) has been criticised (by Karl Popper) as influencing their doctrines and being responsible for much of the mess in the 20th century; despite the fact he declared the German state dead (1798 the German Constitution) and a transition to the stage in which all humans have no national identity.
left-wing.. I would say the Soviets were the real National Socialists.
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That Bearded Man
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#12
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#12
(Original post by demx9)
nazis didnt invent NS, Britian already had a NS party in the past and it was later united with Labour, Nazis just stole the idea like they did with the Swastika
Apologies, invented is the wrong term here, what I mean is that their version is what is currently recognised as "national socialism." Thus the actual definition for national socialism will not include any socialism, nor will it have originated where the term came from (was the first NS party British?)
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That Bearded Man
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#13
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#13
By the way, as I state above, I think the definition National Socialism as a term, specifically relates to nazism, therefore I do believe it to be inherently racist.

Despite this, socialist of course assumes LW, but wouldn't an actual National Socialist definition be beneficial here?
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gladders
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#14
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(Original post by demx9)
nazis didnt invent NS, Britian already had a NS party in the past and it was later united with Labour, Nazis just stole the idea like they did with the Swastika
Chronological does not equal consequential. The British NS party had absolutely nothing to do with the German NS party, and it's extremely likely Hitler and the rest of the Nazis had not heard of the British one when they named their party.
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TheFKY
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#15
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#15
Upon returning to this thread, I've realised that I had confused National Socialism with mere socialism! God, I need to pay better attention to things.

In political terms, National Socialism has been characterised as ethnocentric fascism. Ethnocentrism is defined as the evaluation of other peoples and cultures in accordance with the standards of one's own culture; this coupled with the fact that fascist reforms are often executed by virtue of extremist methods is quite telling of N.S. as a movement strongly driven by intolerance.

Furthermore, German Nazism is, thus far, the only widespread exhibition of National Socialist policy — which would lead one to believe that ethnocentrism (i.e. racism) is not a casual aspect of the movement.

Of course, it's hard to think of N.S. as an independent political ideology because of its sole association with Nazism, so I think any judgement of ours is inherently premature.

Not that we're likely to receive a second case study for it in this day and age. :fuhrer:
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elohssa
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#16
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#16
(Original post by felamaslen)
National Socialism is anti-freedom, and as such, anti-humanity. It's one of the most evil ideologies ever. However, I don't think it is necessarily racist, or at least, I'm not willing to make that claim.
So is communism and left-wing ideologies. What we've had in America between 1950 and 2000 was probably close to perfect.
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felamaslen
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#17
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#17
(Original post by elohssa)
So is communism and left-wing ideologies. What we've had in America between 1950 and 2000 was probably close to perfect.
I agree that Communism is as bad as Nazism, but the "left" is responsible for a lot of social advancements and liberation in the period you mention, which is commendable.
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HokeyWolf
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#18
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#18
I think National Socialism is inherently racist. Socialism has nothing to do with how the National Socialists rebuilt German society. It is a term applied for effect, much how democracy has found its way into the names of numerous un-democratic countries around the world. It is used purely because it implies equality. National Socialism of Nazism is inherently racists. National Socialism implied that only those of German (aryan) nationality and ethnic grounding were equal within German society. At the time, Jews all over Europe were being persecuted as the sole major minority, and had been for centuries. National Socialism took this anti-antisemitism to its logical, genocidal conclusion.
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jimmyjonestown
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#19
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#19
It's racist so shouldn't be allowed ever.
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Rakas21
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#20
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#20
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You've made a very valid point there.

Political opinions are rarely negative in their outlooks. Even communism on paper seems very impressive. As always , the problem is how they're implemented. In trace of national socialism an enemy was needed in prefer to draw people away from their normal political beliefs towards the new belief, but when changing public opinion its always helpful to have a nasty man. For people like the SNP they try and portray the bad man as Westminster and the SE England, for communism the nasty man was the rich and for national socialism it was the Jew. Human nature is to blame somebody else for what's going wrong.

Reading up on national Socialism though it seems not a bad logic on paper, as does communism. But I think it will for ever be tainted by how the Nazis implemented it.

im always wary of an political party or movement that has nationalist or national in it.
I share your dislike for nationalism, it's important to celebrate your (or your countries accomplishments) to some degree but often nationalism is limiting.

Personally i think the bigger shame is the stain that the Nazi's put on eugenics. While it's wrong to kill those deemed undesirable or do it on the basis of blond hair and blue eyes there is nothing inherently wrong with the goal of creating superior genetic stock, in this day and age that can be done via selective breeding of the smartest people or most healthy or even altering the genome of a child before their birth to weed out certain genes.

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
By the way, as I state above, I think the definition National Socialism as a term, specifically relates to nazism, therefore I do believe it to be inherently racist.

Despite this, socialist of course assumes LW, but wouldn't an actual National Socialist definition be beneficial here?
Most ideologues are banded as being left or right dependent on their economic stance and in that sense the word socialist is a correct definition given the anti-rich, communist sympathies and heavily taxing, interventionist policies followed by Hitler and the Nazi's. Clearly however their variation of it was substantially different socially when compared to the likes of Marx.
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