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the big 9-11 conspiracy
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AlphaNumeric
Titanium? Don't you mean steel and concrete? Besides, you don't have to melt metal to weaken it.
the plane's engines were made of an titanium alloy which were never found in any of the attacks
Agent Smith
Does it even matter who did it? You're just as dead if a train hits you as if you're run over by a truck.
On a similar note, I am sick to death of the wall-to-wall 7/7 news items we've been having since about the beginning of the month. It's insensitive to those who lost loved ones or were injured, and it does much less than nothing towards healing the wounds in society that resulted from it. Yes, I'm talking about the I-word.
On a similar note, I am sick to death of the wall-to-wall 7/7 news items we've been having since about the beginning of the month. It's insensitive to those who lost loved ones or were injured, and it does much less than nothing towards healing the wounds in society that resulted from it. Yes, I'm talking about the I-word.
Yeah of course it matters... goodness gracious, child! If the bloody government did it, I'd be ****ing myself.
The Ace is Back
Yeah of course it matters... goodness gracious, child! If the bloody government did it, I'd be ****ing myself.
Agent Smith
Why? Or rather, why more so than if anyone else did it?
Because the people in charge of the country would have just told one of the biggest lies in history, and killed their own people for a perceived 'greater good'. If they're mad enough to do that, who knows what other harm they'll bring to America, and thus indirectly, the rest of the world.
If it was terrorists, that's easy - we just go kick the **** out of them.
Killing its own people for the percieved greater good is what America does every time it sends someone to the chair.
And regarding the "greatest lie in history", I think honesty rather pales into insignificance next to three thousand cold premeditated murders.
But given that we do know who did it, and we're still no nearer to catching them, my question is what practical good it does us to know who was responsible?
And regarding the "greatest lie in history", I think honesty rather pales into insignificance next to three thousand cold premeditated murders.
But given that we do know who did it, and we're still no nearer to catching them, my question is what practical good it does us to know who was responsible?
10inchpianist
the plane's engines were made of an titanium alloy which were never found in any of the attacks
You mean, apart from the one that you can see in the landfill images on the FEMA siste, which certainly appears to be the same type of engine as those on Flight 11, and the engine found on Murray Street after the attack, which is too damaged to visually ID from photos on the internet but again shows no indications of not being an engine from Flight 175?
Agent Smith
Killing its own people for the percieved greater good is what America does every time it sends someone to the chair.
Yes but the subtle difference here is that while the person in the chair has *more often than not* killed one or more other human beings, most people in the twin towers were innocent civilians. While the instance you cite is a punishment, if it was the government who engineered/took part in 9/11 then this is merely using people's lives as a means to an end. Something which is generally unacceptable in the eyes of society.
Agent Smith
And regarding the "greatest lie in history", I think honesty rather pales into insignificance next to three thousand cold premeditated murders.
Really, why?
Agent Smith
But given that we do know who did it, and we're still no nearer to catching them, my question is what practical good it does us to know who was responsible?
You're one cynical bastard eh? How do you know we won't get closer to catching them in the future? Also why are you so sure we do know who did it?
The Ace is Back
Yes but the subtle difference here is that while the person in the chair has *more often than not* killed one or more other human beings, most people in the twin towers were innocent civilians. While the instance you cite is a punishment, if it was the government who engineered/took part in 9/11 then this is merely using people's lives as a means to an end. Something which is generally unacceptable in the eyes of society.
How do you know we won't get closer to catching them in the future? Also why are you so sure we do know who did it?
How do you know we won't get closer to catching them in the future? Also why are you so sure we do know who did it?
Agent Smith
I'm not. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. Of course, in the eyes of those who flew the planes the people in the Towers were sinners, just as a murderer is. And using people/lives as a means to an end is surely the basic aim of the Armed Forces...
Yes but they had no rational basis for believing that these civilians were sinners, for if they had thought about it more than two seconds they surely must have realised that most of these people were brought up in that particular society and in that particular society's beliefs.
The aim of the Armed Forces has nothing to do with the question, for people are not conscripted into them but join voluntarily. Civilians have not agreed to such requirements of them. Hence why they are 'civilians'.
Friggerpants
The towers are made out of Ti.
Ti's got a melting point of 1500 degrees
Kerosene burns at 600 or something around there.
Go figure.
Also, don't try and say "What about the energy transfer, there was a lot!!!".
Yeah, there was, the builiding's layout absorbed a lot of it, and there's not nearly enough energy to bring the buidling down.
Ti's got a melting point of 1500 degrees
Kerosene burns at 600 or something around there.
Go figure.
Also, don't try and say "What about the energy transfer, there was a lot!!!".
Yeah, there was, the builiding's layout absorbed a lot of it, and there's not nearly enough energy to bring the buidling down.
Here are some facts for you.
Steel has a melting point of 1500 degrees C.
Kerosene burns at 825 degrees C.
At 650 C, steel will have lost about 60% strength.
Office fires can burn as hot as 1300 C.
The steel structure of the WTC had it's lightweight fireproofing system blown off by the plane impacts, without protection steel will heat up much, much faster.
It was terrorists.
The whole structure of the WTCs was just asking for someone to hit it with something large and heavy. Visionary architectural thinking it may have been, but resilient it wasn't.
I think there are questions that need answering and an investigation needs to be made, independantly of the US Government. Then we can find out, as opposed to sitting at our computers and arguing with each other about something we have absolutely no idea about.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
George_Insull
I think there are questions that need answering and an investigation needs to be made, independantly of the US Government. Then we can find out, as opposed to sitting at our computers and arguing with each other about something we have absolutely no idea about.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
We'd all like independent investigations into a lot of things but of course we won't get any for obvious reasons. We seldom, if ever, get to know the truth of any action taken by anybody.
That includes ourselves, we generally have a reason for doing anything controversial that we don't want disclosed.
That's human nature I suppose and is one reason I view historical 'facts' as written from the angle that they're more likely to be wrong than right and best ignored.
I think the mere willingness of so many to consider the possibilty that it was not caused by Al Queda or any other foreign group but by 'ourselves' says much about our society.
George_Insull
I think there are questions that need answering and an investigation needs to be made, independantly of the US Government. Then we can find out, as opposed to sitting at our computers and arguing with each other about something we have absolutely no idea about.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
If it was terrorists, fine. They still need to go out and catch them though and not make martyrs of them by executing them.
However, if it was US Government related, we have a big problem on our hands. If someone such as Alex Jones (who predicted 9/11 a month or so before it happened) is correct in this, then we can only hope that the rest of the stuff on infowars and prisonplanet is wrong.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
To be fair, I could have predicted it was going to happen, the way America is compared to the Middle East. It has not been the most stable relationship.
Just because it was predictable, and just because the American Government might have known an attack MIGHT happen does not mean they caused it. If they were told "an attack will happen" what were they supposed to do, evacuate every building and stop all public transport? There are thousands of hoaxes every year to the US security services, they cannot stop all of them, it simply isn't realistic.
History has a funny way of finding out the truth eventually. I find it difficult to believe that the Bush administration, misguided tho it might be, is stupid enough to plan such a big attack.
10inchpianist
theres been a lot of talk about what really happened on 9-11.
documentries such as loosechange ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848 ) provide powerful evidence against the official story.
whereas others defend the official story ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=9-11 )
what does everyone think happened on 9-11?
after hearing both sides of the argument i remain undecided
documentries such as loosechange ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848 ) provide powerful evidence against the official story.
whereas others defend the official story ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=9-11 )
what does everyone think happened on 9-11?
after hearing both sides of the argument i remain undecided
I think you have to be fairly naive, or flat out biased, to be roped into believing a conspiracy theory after watching a video like Loose Change.
The creators of LC say they are just 'Asking Questions', creating a false facade of impartiality, when the film contains many outreageous claims backed up with misquotes, assumptions, mistakes, complete lies and plenty of selective use of evidence tailored to agree with their view.
It's called confirmation bias. The conclusion of that film is already set from minute one and the 'evidence' it presents seems to fit perfectly into that conclusion. But look at it objectively, and the claims put forward by the film fall apart like a house of cards.
For example, the film claims that there was $167 billion of gold stored beneath the WTC, and only $200 million was recovered. The fact is, the total gold reserve of the entire USA as of 9/11 was approx $100 billion.
It also claims that mobile phones don't work at 32,000ft. This is true, though a misleading statement since many of the calls were made on Airfones which are built into the plane and are designed to work at altitude. And the planes were flying as low as 6,000ft after they were hijacked, so mobile phone calls would have been possible anyway.
They also got stuff wrong concerning the engines of Flight 77, claiming that the part found in the Pentagon did not match the engine of the plane, but they were comparing the wrong type of engine. The list goes on and on and on. This guide does a good job of exposing the rubbish in that film: http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html
ice_cube
History has a funny way of finding out the truth eventually. I find it difficult to believe that the Bush administration, misguided tho it might be, is stupid enough to plan such a big attack.
History has a funny way of finding out the truth eventually. I find it difficult to believe that the Bush administration, misguided tho it might be, is stupid enough to plan such a big attack.
It would be utterly impossible to carry out such a large scale attack from the inside and manage to keep it covered up.
Let's have a think about who would know about an inside job having taken place.
All of the heads of departments in the US govt - for planning the attack
The FBI - for confiscating tapes around the Pentagon, prosecuting a fake scapegoat(Moussaoui) and faking a report into the airline put options.
The CIA - for carrying out false investigations
Larry Silverstein - for planning a huge insurance scam
NORAD and the FAA - for not intercepting the planes in time, and fighter pilots for flying too slow
FEMA and NIST - for producing flawed reports
The NYFD - for blowing up WTC7
The people who spent months studying the best places to plant explosives in the WTC buildings.
Enough people at the WTC to ensure that nobody noticed hundreds of tons of high explosives being placed in the buildings and wired up, a process which would have taken months, if not years.
The thousands of workers who cleaned up ground zero and failed to notice any clear signs of controlled demolition.
The people at Palisades, NY - for faking a seismograph reading which shows no evidence of explosives.
The people who faked the Osama Bin Laden confession videos.
For the 'special plane' hypothesis, the following would know:
Those who remote controlled the planes.
Those who helped prepared the fake planes beforehand.
Those who disposed of 200+ passengers and crew who were on the planes and never came home.
United and American Airlines for providing fake plane debris to be planted at the WTC, Pentagon and Shanksville, and the people who planted it.
Everyone who helped fake the phone calls from the planes, using technology that was good enough to fool close family members and hold 20 minute conversations.
Air traffic controllers - for not noticing mystery planes appearing on the radar.
The hijackers and their families - for not coming forward and stating that their identity was used. The people who faked the CCTV images of them boarding the planes and the Flight 93 black box recording.
And nobody has exposed it yet? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Full investigation needed, but lets not take sides, as it's ultimately pointless until we know ALL the facts.
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past
^^That pretty much sums up my views on truth...
Tw!stEd
^^That pretty much sums up my views on truth...
The difference being America and Britain aren't totalitarian states.
caw123
NORAD and the FAA - for not intercepting the planes in time, and fighter pilots for flying too slow
Weren't they ordered to stand down or something for the first time in their history?
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