Animal testing and new medicines

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isitinyet?
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I'm pro animal testing for medical purposes ie discovering the potential side effects of new drugs, against it for cosmetics.

I was having a debate on the subject earlier and put forward the fact that antibiotics, anesthetics, insulin and organ transplants were all developed using animal testing. There was one question put to me that I couldn't answer:


Why is a humans life worth more than an animals?

Just wondering your thoughts on that/answers if you have one.

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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by isitinyet?)
I'm pro animal testing for medical purposes ie discovering the potential side effects of new drugs, against it for cosmetics.

I was having a debate on the subject earlier and put forward the fact that antibiotics, anesthetics, insulin and organ transplants were all developed using animal testing. There was one question put to me that I couldn't answer:


Why is a humans life worth more than an animals?

Just wondering your thoughts on that/answers if you have one.

Personally, I don't think that a humans life is worth more than an animals, but that's probably because I basically hate people. I would much rather have drug testing done on convicted murderers/rapists/paedo's etc and recidivists, than cute little innocent bunnies or rats.
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Mackay
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
Personally, I don't think that a humans life is worth more than an animals, but that's probably because I basically hate people. I would much rather have drug testing done on convicted murderers/rapists/paedo's etc and recidivists, than cute little innocent bunnies or rats.
Morrissey?! I loved your book, man. Loved it.
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by Mackay)
Morrissey?! I loved your book, man. Loved it.
It's true, man. And as for the cruelty to animals that goes on in China, well you can't help but feel that Chinese people are a subspecies.
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
Personally, I don't think that a humans life is worth more than an animals, but that's probably because I basically hate people. I would much rather have drug testing done on convicted murderers/rapists/paedo's etc and recidivists, than cute little innocent bunnies or rats.
I hate people too, I think we're killing our world and everything that shares it with us. I also love my mom and in a hypothetical situation where the death of a cute rabbit would mean the development of a new drug that could save her life from cancer then I'd be grateful to that rabbit but I'd have no worries about it dying for her.

How about you in that situation?
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Soft Cat
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(Original post by isitinyet?)
I'm pro animal testing for medical purposes ie discovering the potential side effects of new drugs, against it for cosmetics.

I was having a debate on the subject earlier and put forward the fact that antibiotics, anesthetics, insulin and organ transplants were all developed using animal testing. There was one question put to me that I couldn't answer:


Why is a humans life worth more than an animals?

Just wondering your thoughts on that/answers if you have one.

Test them on illegal migrants, criminals and gays instead of innocent animals.
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by Soft Cat)
Test them on illegal migrants, criminals and gays instead of innocent animals.
guessing you're not serious...
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Soft Cat
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(Original post by isitinyet?)
guessing you're not serious...
Those people won't be missed go for it
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Soft Cat
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Use criminals instead
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
It's true, man. And as for the cruelty to animals that goes on in China, well you can't help but feel that Chinese people are a subspecies.
(Original post by Soft Cat)
Use criminals instead
Same argument with the death penalty. It's rare that you're ever 100% sure that a person commited a crime they've been accused of. May be testing new drugs on someone who's innocent but was wrongfully convicted.
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paddyman4
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(Original post by isitinyet?)
I'm pro animal testing for medical purposes ie discovering the potential side effects of new drugs, against it for cosmetics.

I was having a debate on the subject earlier and put forward the fact that antibiotics, anesthetics, insulin and organ transplants were all developed using animal testing. There was one question put to me that I couldn't answer:


Why is a humans life worth more than an animals?

Just wondering your thoughts on that/answers if you have one.

There is no real answer to that question. The standard debate is completely circular and goes something like this:

For: Humans are more intelligent than animals

Against: So? Since when is intelligence correlated with your right to exist? And does this mean clever people can kill less clever people? Can we test on people in permanent vegetative states who have far less brain function than any chimp?

For: No, because humans lives are more important.




In reality, it all comes down to power. Humans have the power to do whatever they want to animals and animals cannot stand up and force us to change. It is analogous to when white people had all the power and did what they pleased to black people. There was never any clever argument to vindicate this behaviour - people were born into a society that thought this way and did not change their minds until a few people sparked a fightback.
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by paddyman4)
There is no real answer to that question. The standard debate is completely circular and goes something like this:

For: Humans are more intelligent than animals

Against: So? Since when is intelligence correlated with your right to exist? And does this mean clever people can kill less clever people? Can we test on people in permanent vegetative states who have far less brain function than any chimp?

For: No, because humans lives are more important.




In reality, it all comes down to power. Humans have the power to do whatever they want to animals and animals cannot stand up and force us to change. It is analogous to when white people had all the power and did what they pleased to black people. There was never any clever argument to vindicate this behaviour - people were born into a society that thought this way and did not change their minds until a few people sparked a fightback.
Get the impression you disagree with animal testing. I'm not trying to change your opinion or influence you, just wondering how you would react in the situation I put to someone above. The only difference between that situation and the real world is the time scale between an animal dying and a new drug being developed...
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by isitinyet?)
Same argument with the death penalty. It's rare that you're ever 100% sure that a person commited a crime they've been accused of. May be testing new drugs on someone who's innocent but was wrongfully convicted.
Number of convicted murderers who are innocent - probably around 5% max. (top estimate after brief internet browsing).

Number of animals which are perfectly capable of feeling fear and pain (and are also innocent) - 100%

I'm alright with those odds. Maybe if it was moved to humans, labs would have more safety, compassion and pain relief restrictions imposed on them that they don't at the moment because it's 'only animals'?
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
Number of convicted murderers who are innocent - probably around 5% max. (top estimate after brief internet browsing).

Number of animals which are perfectly capable of feeling fear and pain (and are also innocent) - 100%

I'm alright with those odds. Maybe if it was moved to humans, labs would have more safety, compassion and pain relief restrictions imposed on them that they don't at the moment because it's 'only animals'?
You wouldn't be fine with those odds if you were mistakenly part of that 5%, would you?

Labs in the UK have the strictest laws in the world on the use of animals in research. I know from first hand experience that it's done in an humane way. I've killed drosophila in a lab, I'm not bragging about it but I know that they we're put to sleep on CO2 before they were euthanised.
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ForgetMe
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I don't support animal testing either.. If people want new drugs to benefit them, why don't they just test with humans? I mean, time to stop abusing poor animals..
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isitinyet?
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(Original post by ForgetMe)
I don't support animal testing either.. If people want new drugs to benefit them, why don't they just test with humans? I mean, time to stop abusing poor animals..
Who are you going to test on?
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locrian37
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I'd like to see these PETA dumbasses volunteer themselves to replace animal testing? No? Well okay, but you can make me some novel monoclonal antibodies, right? No? Well **** off.
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ForgetMe
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(Original post by locrian37)
I'd like to see these PETA dumbasses volunteer themselves to replace animal testing? No? Well okay, but you can make me some novel monoclonal antibodies, right? No? Well **** off.
If you want something yo benefit you, why don't you volunteer yourself?
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locrian37
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(Original post by ForgetMe)
If you want something yo benefit you, why don't you volunteer yourself?
Because I'd rather use a mouse as it has no value to me, if I died making the mAb, the mouse couldn't carry on the research, if the mouse died, I would give no ****s about it and use the next one.
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ForgetMe
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(Original post by locrian37)
Because I'd rather use a mouse as it has no value to me, if I died making the mAb, the mouse couldn't carry on the research, if the mouse died, I would give no ****s about it and use the next one.
Well, you have no value for us, so
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