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    (Original post by 789654123)
    You make it seem Israel are not the terrorists either. :rolleyes:
    The Israelis are not terrorists. Some of their methods are brutal, yes, but at least the nation as a whole debates and discusses these points, and most Israelis find the number of Palestinian casualties to be too high, and very unecessary.
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    (Original post by Evil-Tuna)
    Are you able to read his post or not? Ive noticed somewhat, your ability to get the point confused. I myself have had to readdress you in some cases with regard to your factual inaccuracy and then you come back with yet another response of the same calibre or you dont even bother to address. Not a surprise. And my, look at the tone of your responses.


    Fishboy, why don't you think for once. Can you not notice that the OP was extremely biased in wording? I wanted to make the point that he shouldn't try to peg it onto one side, and that this is a conflict that both sides have had their part in. My calibre of response varies, but you can just ask many of the old timers here on TSR, and I am sure that they will say that I manage to churn out a good few high quality posts.
    He asked whether the ratio of death is acceptable. Now, considering how other countries have reacted to hostage situations, when their own side has been attacked by the hostage takers as well (so uh guh! there are deaths on both sides), there is a marked difference. I think thats one of the central points here.
    This isn't just because of the Hostage situation. If you actually read something (besides the Respect campaign flyer), you would learn that the Palestinians have graciously responded to Israels withdrawal from Gaza by firing rockets continuously into civilian neighbourhoods to kill as many women and children as possible. Israel is attacking Gaza because of the number of civilians who have died in Palestinian rocket attacks.

    He asked whether its justified. To then say he is automatically blaming one side unfairly based purely on that is ridiculous. Justification implies the consideration of pros and cons. Although, I think the ratio of death in this specific case is outweighed by other problems such as power shortage, general poverty in Palestine, loss of infrastructure etc. pianist probably could make a better case for himself.
    He asked whether is was justified without understanding that this is not only a hostage situation but also an attempt to maintain security as Hamas commits itself to attacking civilians.
    ''these people were not killed by israelis''

    lets note, these people were killed indirectly (or not, in a small number of cases) because of Israels offensive.
    And let us note that there are Israelis killed by Palestinian rocket attacks, and that is what led to this attack.



    Oh yeah, they don't have an army, because they cant afford one. Though im sure if it was called an army it would be a whole different scenario. Sure. (im being sarcastic)
    Oh yes! That lovely palestinian army that spends more time blowing up little kids than fighting the Israeli forces. I don't know many armies that do that, besides the Irish Republican Army.
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    (Original post by 10inchpianist)
    as of 7/7/2006 the 20th innocent palestinian civilian has been killed during israels offfensive loking for a soldier.

    is the killing of 20 civilians justified as the palestinians have one soldier ?
    Ahh, the palestinians. They've turned lies in to a new form of art, haven't they?

    There have not been 20 innocent palestinian civilians killed so far in the operation to retrieve the Israeli soldier. I've been watching carefully, the VAST majority of palestinian casualties have been members of Hamas and other terror groups, and the few that haven't have been hit during strikes aimed at terrorists.

    I think the success of the lies is simply in the fact that nobody expects them to be so blatantly and verifiably untruthful. You have to know what depths they will sink to, and it's hard to imagine sometimes.
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    (Original post by Evil-Tuna)
    Isnt that a rather open-ended quote in relation to this?
    No.
    Do you think that quote accounted for the level of unjustifiable bloodshed for one life on one side?
    'unjustifiable' - the Israeli actions are not just because of the soldier but also for the rocket attacks on Ashkelon so the question is irrelevent.
    Isnt it slightly misguided to use that quote out of the context of an actual war?
    What do you think the Palestinians and Israelis are doing??? Having a tea party???
    Why do you think that the UK hasnt acted like the Israelis with regards to hostage situations in Iraq for example?
    Because the UK hasn't been under attack from the same people ever since it was created. Because the UK doesn't have to fight to survive on a daily basis. Because the inhabitants of the UK haven't been under threat from daily suicide attacks on buses, in the shopping centres etc. Because the general UK populace doesn't really give a toss about Iraq (no disrespect here..it's fact..I'm not stating my personal opnion here) whilst every single Israeli knows at least 1 family member killed by an attack.
    Hence..completely diff.situations.
    Where there were demands like free all Iraqi women from prisons etc. why do you think negotiations worked in such a scenario?
    See above.
    And you do understand that the term offensive when used in the context of the military means a form of attack?
    Yes.
    And that its synonymous with military operation etc. its a perfectly honest term that is used by both sides. Theres nothing wrong or questionable about it at all.
    What's your point?

    If thats the kind of argument you want to pursue, for the sake of debate, how about the other side who think it a right hoot to use sonic booms over the gaza area? What if you woke up to a barrage of that? Would you think it indiscriminate action? Would you say, oh yes, that olmert is right when he says he doesnt want to effect or the lives of ordinary Palestinians in any way or intimidate them etc. Let me guess, you believe the line drilled out from the government, right?
    In response to being provoked..not 'just because.'

    You also miss the point quite spectacularly there. Have you noticed how the thread is about to what extent you justify a response?
    Nope..haven't read it - just saw your post. :p:

    If you have, then firstly, well done.
    Thanks but not deserved credit.



    Will answer the rest tomorrow - 'tis very late now.

    PS/ David - i didn't know you were anti-zionist.
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    THIS IS TO EVERYONE WHO POSTED, I CANT BE ARSED TO QUOTE LOADS OF PEOPLE

    israel does not exactly want peace though do they...they wont even allow negotiations which palestine has offered

    israels response has been dangerously disproportionate, all for 'one soldier' israel:

    1) bombed bridges,roads
    2) bombed a powerplant that produces 60% of Gazas electricity
    3) shut down water pumps during the heat of summer (and no water -> no washing -> no daily obligatory prayer)
    3) bombed the palestinian interior ministry
    4) killed a ****-load of civilians


    this is merely to intimidate and inflict collective punishment, happening just as hamas signed a two-state soluition paving the way for negotiations (the israeli PM really does not want to negotiate).

    the way i see it is that israel just wants to stop the home made rockets being launched into israel from gaza. fair enough these rockets are a threat but have killed noone this year. by contrast israel's retaliation in recent months has lead to 50 palestinian deaths including several children. hardly justified ?

    40 years of attempted intimidating palestinians has only lead to their radicalisation, isnt it time to change course ?


    israeli paper The Jerusalem Post agrees:

    "israel is in a no-win situation. it fails to secure Shalits release through military means,it will have to negotiate - but also knows that negotiations will lead to a spate of copycat kidnappings. israel may well bring down the Hamas government. but what then ? A new palestinian leadership installed as a result will never be regarded as legitimate. and israel isn't ready to govern the territories itself again. unfortunatly without hamas the most likely scenario is anarchy"
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    So what do they want? They have the capability to destroy every Palestinian alive. They aren't, so what are they doing - playing with them like a cat would to a mouse?
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    (Original post by 10inchpianist)
    israel does not exactly want peace though do they...they wont even allow negotiations which palestine has offered
    The Palestinian Government is headed by Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Are you saying Israel should negotiate with terrorists?

    israels response has been dangerously disproportionate, all for 'one soldier' israel:
    This isn't one soldier. This has to do with rocket attacks against Israeli towns.

    1) bombed bridges,roads
    On whihc Hamas terrorists were traveling in motor vehicles.
    2) bombed a powerplant that produces 60% of Gazas electricity
    Used as a shield by Hamas.
    3) shut down water pumps during the heat of summer (and no water -> no washing -> no daily obligatory prayer)
    This was done by Hamas operatives.
    3) bombed the palestinian interior ministry
    The leaders of the terrorist attacks on civilians
    4) killed a ****-load of civilians
    Accidentaly. And still not as many as have been killed by suicide bombers, or being used as human shields by terrorists.


    this is merely to intimidate and inflict collective punishment, happening just as hamas signed a two-state soluition paving the way for negotiations (the israeli PM really does not want to negotiate).
    Hamas signing a two-state agreement? They have commited themselves to the destruction of Israel.

    the way i see it is that israel just wants to stop the home made rockets being launched into israel from gaza. fair enough these rockets are a threat but have killed noone this year. by contrast israel's retaliation in recent months has lead to 50 palestinian deaths including several children. hardly justified ?
    Do you know how many people have been injured? If Israel sat around and waited many more Israeli civilians would have been killed.

    40 years of attempted intimidating palestinians has only lead to their radicalisation, isnt it time to change course ?
    Perhaps it is. But as a good cliche goes "it takes two to tango"


    israeli paper The Jerusalem Post agrees:

    "israel is in a no-win situation. it fails to secure Shalits release through military means,it will have to negotiate - but also knows that negotiations will lead to a spate of copycat kidnappings. israel may well bring down the Hamas government. but what then ? A new palestinian leadership installed as a result will never be regarded as legitimate. and israel isn't ready to govern the territories itself again. unfortunatly without hamas the most likely scenario is anarchy"
    Don't get me wrong. Some of Israels actions are very heavy-handed and will do no good for their cause, but there are reasons for why they do what they do.
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    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    The Palestinian Government is headed by Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Are you saying Israel should negotiate with terrorists?
    anyone who commits terror is a terrorist. israel commited terror recently by killing 40 innocent civilians. you catch my drift


    This isn't one soldier. This has to do with rocket attacks against Israeli towns.
    the offical reason the the invasion is for the kidnapped soldier. you cant deny that


    On whihc Hamas terrorists were traveling in motor vehicles.
    so if you live in gaza, and have a car you are a terrorist..right...


    Used as a shield by Hamas.
    are you mad matey??? evidence ?


    This was done by Hamas operatives.
    are you mad matey??? evidence, please!?!


    The leaders of the terrorist attacks on civilians
    fair enough. good point


    Accidentaly. And still not as many as have been killed by suicide bombers, or being used as human shields by terrorists.
    not entirely 'accidently' as opposed to negligence. the israelis obviously regard an israeli life as far more important then a palestinians life


    Hamas signing a two-state agreement? They have commited themselves to the destruction of Israel.
    they still signed it...israel doesnt even want to negotiate for peace, says a lot doesn't it ?


    Do you know how many people have been injured? If Israel sat around and waited many more Israeli civilians would have been killed.
    so killing 40 odd palestinians is any better ? again the israelis obviously regard an israeli life as far more important then a palestinians life


    Perhaps it is. But as a good cliche goes "it takes two to tango"
    exactly. then why does israel not want to negotiate then ? negotiations are then the way forward for long term peace in the middle east.


    Don't get me wrong. Some of Israels actions are very heavy-handed and will do no good for their cause, but there are reasons for why they do what they do.
    please make this sentence more vague...
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    So what do they want? They have the capability to destroy every Palestinian alive. They aren't, so what are they doing - playing with them like a cat would to a mouse?
    ahem?
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    So what do they want? They have the capability to destroy every Palestinian alive.
    they cant do that cos every muslim in the world would be at their neck


    They aren't, so what are they doing - playing with them like a cat would to a mouse?
    they struck the right balance of messing with the palestinians, but not too much as to attract neighborUs to express deep concerns
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    (Original post by 10inchpianist)
    they cant do that cos every muslim in the world would be at their neck

    they struck the right balance of messing with the palestinians, but not too much as to attract neighborUs to express deep concerns
    But every muslim nation DOES hate them - remember the six-day-war? - and they don't have a balance! The only reason they haven't been invaded is because all the muslim arab nations surrounding them know they'd get their arse pounded and handed back to them in a bleeding mess of torn tissue and broken sphincter. And that's even without the direct help the US would give - not that it'd be need or particularly wanted.
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    But every muslim nation DOES hate them - remember the six-day-war? - and they don't have a balance! The only reason they haven't been invaded is because all the muslim arab nations surrounding them know they'd get their arse pounded and handed back to them in a bleeding mess of torn tissue and broken sphincter. And that's even without the direct help the US would give - not that it'd be need or particularly wanted.

    true but a small area of palestine has been giving them trouble for a long time. if all the arab countries formed a coalistion they could easily take israel out. or am i underestimating the power of israel. before the US intervention that is.
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    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Israelis don't go "Hmm look a bunch of children on a school bus. Lets go blow them to smithereens." Hamas, and others, however do exactly that. Civilians in Israeli attacks are not targets, but collateral casualties, and many Israelis themselves see these casualties as excessive and actively campaign against such attacks. I don't see such a movement, however, taking over Hamas or Hezbollah.
    Are you an Israeli? You seem to know exactly what they do and exactly what they think.

    Actually, I've seen quite a few videos of Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian school kids. School children have died in these brutal raids. Children have died because a soldier (and he chose to be a soldier) was kidnapped. Why don't the Israeli 'soldiers' come out of the air and fight the 'terrorists' face to face, since they care so much about the children.

    Well, that's very obvious.
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    (Original post by 10inchpianist)
    they cant do that cos every muslim in the world would be at their neck
    The 'muslims' have tried that at least 3 times, 1948, 1967 and 1973 - they've got completely screwed every single time. Israel could do what it wants. The fact is, the Arab world doesn't give a toss about the 'palestinians' - why do you think it's such an issue when the US and EU cut funding? Because the Arabs don't actually do anything except bash Israel as much as possible.
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    (Original post by 10inchpianist)
    true but a small area of palestine has been giving them trouble for a long time. if all the arab countries formed a coalistion they could easily take israel out. or am i underestimating the power of israel.
    Firstly, every Arab neighbour that Israel has, has fought simultaneous wars against them, supported by troops and equipment from other Arab countries... And STILL lost.
    Secondly, if that's what you think, then surely you must fully understand why Israel desperately needs the deterrent of 200 nuclear warheads...
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    (Original post by vortex_199)
    Are you an Israeli? You seem to know exactly what they do and exactly what they think.
    Well, from the bilge below, it's clear that you know little about it.

    (Original post by vortex_199)
    Actually, I've seen quite a few videos of Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian school kids. School children have died in these brutal raids.
    Whatever, I don't believe you. I want to know who exactly has done the filming and how verifiably it was Israel responsible. Show me the money, as it were.

    (Original post by vortex_199)
    (and he chose to be a soldier) was kidnapped.
    Thank you for proving you no nothing about Israel at all. Israel's army is a mostly civilian one, and Israelis have to do military service when they turn 18. The taken soldier was 19, still on military service, hence, no choice.

    [QUOTE=vortex_199] Why don't the Israeli 'soldiers' come out of the air and fight the 'terrorists' face to face, since they care so much about the children.
    What a silly question. If you want to ask a question like that, why not make it - Why don't the terrorists stop using civilians as cover and come and fight the Israelis face to face? That question is a lot more reasonable and pertinent.
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    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    The Palestinian Government is headed by Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Are you saying Israel should negotiate with terrorists?
    Again mate, see how they have been portrayed as terrorists. An excellent idea indeed, portray them as terrorist and they can have a good excuse to continue their terrorisation. Hamas is an elected government, they did not become government by force (maybe they did according to the american media :rolleyes:). They have had their share of killings, but during a war they do have the right to defend their land. But notice the fact that most palestines support them (hence they were elected). It is much easier for them to judge than you or me who receive biased versions of events.

    America used similar tactics during our liberation war (Bangladesh, 1971). They supported pakistanis and termed our freedom fighters as terrorists. Pakistani military killed 3 million Bangladeshis but they were not terrorists or criminals in their eyes. But our people who fought for liberation of the country were. Fair? Indeed :rolleyes:. Have you ever wondered why Americans see different CNN telecast than the rest of the world?
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    Again mate, see how they have been portrayed as terrorists.
    The fact that they deliberately and proudly target civilians in civilian places in order to achieve their goals, thus fitting the exact dictionary-definition of terrorism, I'm sure has nothing to do with it. Hamas has not been 'portrayed' as terrorists, the actions they take are so clearly terrorism that it takes the most remarkable amount of ridiculous denial to claim otherwise. And this is the trouble with fools like you - you will go to the ends of the Earth to deny the most blatant acts of terrorism, which if committed against anyone else on Earth there would be no debate about.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    Hamas is an elected government
    So, all that does is display to the world that the 'poor palestinian civilians' actually WANT to be led by crazed Islamist terrorists who suicidally take on Israel. It doesn't stop them being terrorists, it just displays for all the world to see that the palestinians are right there with them. As do the latest polls which display majorities of palestinians being in favour of kidnappings and rocket attacks.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    but during a war they do have the right to defend their land.
    Ah, the old 'slip the lie in' tactic. Anyway, if this were a proper war, then the UN wouldn't be trying to tell Israel to make sure all the palestinians are well-fed and watered, would they? If this was a proper war, why is Israel apparently also expected to be humanitarian and support the enemy who wishes them dead? Your attempt to portray this as some sort of legitimate 'war' being fought by Hamas is self-defeating, considering how a proper war would be so one-sided as to be absurd. You want a proper war? That just typifies the death-cult mentality amongst the palestinians.
 
 
 
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