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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    So, all that does is display to the world that the 'poor palestinian civilians' actually WANT to be led by crazed Islamist terrorists who suicidally take on Israel. It doesn't stop them being terrorists, it just displays for all the world to see that the palestinians are right there with them. As do the latest polls which display majorities of palestinians being in favour of kidnappings and rocket attacks.
    You missed my next line

    It is much easier for them to judge than you or me who receive biased versions of events.
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    The fact that they deliberately and proudly target civilians in civilian places in order to achieve their goals, thus fitting the exact dictionary-definition of terrorism, I'm sure has nothing to do with it. Hamas has not been 'portrayed' as terrorists, the actions they take are so clearly terrorism that it takes the most remarkable amount of ridiculous denial to claim otherwise. And this is the trouble with fools like you - you will go to the ends of the Earth to deny the most blatant acts of terrorism, which if committed against anyone else on Earth there would be no debate about.
    I didn't say that they are innocent. You should read my post again. My point is, if they are terrorists, Israelis are as well.
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    Ah, the old 'slip the lie in' tactic. Anyway, if this were a proper war, then the UN wouldn't be trying to tell Israel to make sure all the palestinians are well-fed and watered, would they? If this was a proper war, why is Israel apparently also expected to be humanitarian and support the enemy who wishes them dead? Your attempt to portray this as some sort of legitimate 'war' being fought by Hamas is self-defeating, considering how a proper war would be so one-sided as to be absurd. You want a proper war? That just typifies the death-cult mentality amongst the palestinians.
    Ofcourse, Israelis are very merciful. They want to support the palestines, they don't want them dead. Palestines are killing them, but they have been forgiven. The deaths of the palestines in the hand of Israelis were just accidents, they certainly do not wish to see them dead.
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    When an israeli soldiers are captured, they are hostages. When palestined are captures, they are no more than criminals. Biased? You will certainly disagree.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    You missed my next line
    That's because your next line contained nothing of value, only completely unevidenced assertion with no detail or explanation. It might as well have not been there, so I assumed it wasn't.
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    There is little to gain by arguing. Our views will not change. It is better if we agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    When an israeli soldiers are captured, they are hostages. When palestined are captures, they are no more than criminals. Biased? You will certainly disagree.
    I'm not sure how much you (or jonathon) knows about Israel, but our internal security service, Shin Bet (the people who decide who to capture) are EXTREMELY heavy handed with Israeli citizens (jews) too.
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    That's because your next line contained nothing of value, only completely unevidenced assertion with no detail or explanation. It might as well have not been there, so I assumed it wasn't.
    Surely people on the spot can judge events better than people who were not, and receive a biased version of events?

    Unevidenced? I don't know what you mean, it is easy enough to come to this conclusion. They get the real story. So their judgements are on average better.

    As I said, no point in arguing further.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    I didn't say that they are innocent. You should read my post again. My point is, if they are terrorists, Israelis are as well.
    Rubbish. This desperate attempt by the palestinians to try and get some moral equivalence is breathtakingly absurd for a people so mired in terrorism that they elect the terrorists to rule. Israel does not target innocent civilians. It goes out of its way to not harm them. Does anybody fail to realise the damage Israel could do if it did not care about civilian life? It could just raze Gaza, nevermind simply targetting missile strikes at terrorists. Israel routinely does NOT fire missiles at terrorists because it poses too much of a risk to civilians. Israel also frequently (specifically in the West Bank) conducts arrest raids for wanted terrorists, so as to avoid collateral damage. Both of these things put Israeli forces and people in unnecessary danger, simply to keep the palestinian death toll down. Israel does not engage in terrorism, along with idiotic accusations such as 'apartheid', 'racism' etc. it is a term that the palestinians and their supporters love to abuse without actually comprehending.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    The deaths of the palestines in the hand of Israelis were just accidents, they certainly do not wish to see them dead.
    And when all else fails, be sarcastic with the truth, right? Israel does not want to kill palestinian civilians - what would be in it for them? The only reason that they might want to do such a thing is as part of some extermination policy. And seeing as that for the last 40 years palestinian population-growth has been ridiculously high, far higher than Israel's, it's quite clear that there is no policy of that nature.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    Surely people on the spot can judge events better than people who were not, and receive a biased version of events?
    Sorry, who are you relying on that's 'on the spot'? I get all my news on Israel from the media over there, both left and right wing, and then draw my own conclusions.

    (Original post by Nuheen)
    Unevidenced? I don't know what you mean, it is easy enough to come to this conclusion. They get the real story.
    Who's "they"? What are you on about.
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    (Original post by samba)
    I'm not sure how much you (or jonathon) knows about Israel, but our internal security service, Shin Bet (the people who decide who to capture) are EXTREMELY heavy handed with Israeli citizens (jews) too.
    I was referring to the fact that when israelis capture palestines, the captives are referred to as criminals by the american media. But when the opposite happens, the captives are hostages.

    I am not saying that the israelis are lenient when arresting israeli criminals. I don't know about your law and order system, and it has little to do with this debate.
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    Sorry, who are you relying on that's 'on the spot'? I get all my news on Israel from the media over there, both left and right wing, and then draw my own conclusions.

    Who's "they"? What are you on about.
    Israeli media is not likely to be unbiased. I am talking about both israelis and palestines who live there.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    I was referring to the fact that when israelis capture palestines, the captives are referred to as criminals by the american media. But when the opposite happens, the captives are hostages.

    I am not saying that the israelis are lenient when arresting israeli criminals. I don't know about your law and order system, and it has little to do with this debate.
    Shin Bet doesnt deal with our "law and order" system. It deals with terrorist and national security matters.

    So if "palestines" and Israelis are treated the same, what is your argument?

    Also, since when did anybody care what the US media thinks?

    A palestinian terror group with no judicial system or courts has no right to "capture" anybody. It's called Kidnap.
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    (Original post by JonathanH)
    And when all else fails, be sarcastic with the truth, right? Israel does not want to kill palestinian civilians - what would be in it for them? The only reason that they might want to do such a thing is as part of some extermination policy. And seeing as that for the last 40 years palestinian population-growth has been ridiculously high, far higher than Israel's, it's quite clear that there is no policy of that nature.
    They don't want to kill them, but strange how palestine civilians are still being killed.
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    (Original post by samba)
    Shin Bet doesnt deal with our "law and order" system. It deals with terrorist and national security matters.

    So if "palestines" and Israelis are treated the same, what is your argument?

    Also, since when did anybody care what the US media thinks?

    A palestinian terror group with no judicial system or courts has no right to "capture" anybody. It's called Kidnap.
    So the presence of court makes 'capture' right? Israelis can capture palestines because they have a court (who declares them as terrorist), palestines (terror group) can't capture israelis because they don't have a court?
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    Right, as I said earlier, no one will change their stance. So I will stop debating, it is fruitless.
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    Hey 10inchpianist,

    You said Israel haven't made any attempts at peace. You're wrong.

    Remember the peace talks in the early 90s (Oslo) which failed because while Israel was willing to see themselves on completely equal terms as the Palestinians, the latter would not recognise the former?
    Remember how Israel had won so many defensive wars and therefore was being more than generous by doing this alone (I don't think you should really start a war, lose it, and then expect to be treated as if it never happened, multiply that by however many wars there have been...imagine Japan/Germany doing what Palestine are doing to Israel after they lost WWII, I don't think we'd give them quite such nice treatment)?
    Remember the assissination of the 2 Fatah officials who engaged in peace talks?
    Remember how Israel offered to accept UN SC Res 242, but it was rejected by the Palestinians?
    Remember how in survey after survey, the majority of Israelis want peace?
    Remember how 87% of Palestinians don't want peace?
    Remember how Israel withdrew from a number of territories which it won (such as Gaza) in an attempt to get peace?
    Remember how Israel withdrew from Palestinian population centres on the West Bank? (Until they were used as centres for terrorism, those which weren't remain unoccupied by Israel of course, like Jericho)
    Remember Barak? Offered Palestine 96% of the West Bank, half of Jerusalem, Temple Mount etc. Rejected of course.
    Remember 28/9/2000?

    Nah, the people who don't want peace are the ones who have constantly rejected the 2-state solution, called for Israel to be destroyed, murdered Olympic athletes, diplomats, pilgrims, blow up airplanes, regularly bomb civilians, hijack ships, and have been known to throw disabled people into the sea from such hijacked ships. The same ones who send letter bombs to businesspeople, throw hand bombs at nursery school children...
    And Hamas, although I'm sure they're lovely pacifists at heart, remember them? The ones who said "peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Mvt" "they must be butchered and killed" "wherever you meet them, kill them" and "there is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad", the same ones who "blame" Jews for WWI/II, the French and Russian Revolutions, and the creation of the UN which they think was a ploy to "rule over the world". Mmm, yes, I can see how the deaths of 6000000 of them would be a great way to get world domination. The same ones who call Judaism a "false faith" and "the dirtiest and meanest of all races" and "brothers of the apes", the same ones who preach as FACT in their schools that the Torah promotes "religious and racial fanaticism" (LOL, and the Qu'ran has no such claim made against it), and that Jews control the economy are "money chargers" and feel "superior".

    But yeah, I'm sure they have made great attemps at peace. Just show me where. I mean it. Please.
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    (Original post by Nuheen)
    So the presence of court makes 'capture' right? Israelis can capture palestines because they have a court (who declares them as terrorist), palestines (terror group) can't capture israelis because they don't have a court?
    Um, Yes.

    If I live in the UK, and the police "capture" me for a crime against the state that is OK.

    If however, I go out and capture 5 police officers for "crimes against my beliefs" that is wrong.

    See the difference?
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    Crime. Define crime. What is crime to the israelis is not crime to the palestines. And vice versa.
 
 
 
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