Democracy on the immigration matter; has it failed?

Watch this thread
Poll: Has democratic means failed in the UK regarding the immigration issue?
The results of this poll are hidden until the poll closes.
Mourinho<3
Badges: 7
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#1
Report Thread starter 8 years ago
#1
I personally believe that democratic means have failed in the UK regarding the immigration issue. The politicans who rely on UK votes have, as soon as they get into power, dismissed the views of the mass public. The situation has occured where Britain has lost the right to control its own borders. The politicans who approved these laws have really excelled themselves on this matter.

To what extent do others agree? It would be interesting from my perspective to hear how many others my age, also students etc also feel the current democratic system is actually, well, rather not so democratic on major issues as we had hoped. This issue is not a recent one-it has been building up for years now. The ruling elite and countless corruption scandals in politics very much gives the impression of politicans being interested in furthering their own agendas and caring little for the people they claim to represent and the immigration debate reflects this.

Another issue-why can politicans claim "expenses"? It should come out your salary like everyone else, whether your salary be £50 a day or £500 a day.

EDIT; This poll is just regarding immigration but I feel it is a trend that can be seen in many other areas is my point.
1
reply
MagicNMedicine
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#2
Report 8 years ago
#2
So why didn't the mass public vote in UKIP...?

UKIP aren't a new party they have been around for years complaining about immigration.
0
reply
Mourinho<3
Badges: 7
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#3
Report Thread starter 8 years ago
#3
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
So why didn't the mass public vote in UKIP...?

UKIP aren't a new party they have been around for years complaining about immigration.
Immigration isn't the only issue to determine who to vote for, can they be trusted as a less experienced party, would a vote for them be a vote wasted due to the dominance of Labour/Conservative, etc -many reasons why people wouldn't vote massively UKIP. This time round it would be interesting to see what the results were.
0
reply
Ace123
Badges: 2
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#4
Report 8 years ago
#4
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
So why didn't the mass public vote in UKIP...?

UKIP aren't a new party they have been around for years complaining about immigration.
perhaps because each party have promised to deal with the EU and immigration at every election. Only at the last election Cameron promised to radically reduce immigration and both the Tories and Libdems promised an Eu vote in 2010 campaign and have failed to deliver on all of it. Democracy is very far removed from immigration as MP's do whatever they want
0
reply
419
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#5
Report 8 years ago
#5
The irony of op's username and avatar. Can't take you srsly.


Posted from TSR Mobile
1
reply
MagicNMedicine
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#6
Report 8 years ago
#6
(Original post by Ace123)
perhaps because each party have promised to deal with the EU and immigration at every election.
So when Labour won large majorities in 1997, 2001 and 2005 what were their manifesto promises for "dealing with the EU and immigration"?

Did people vote them in thinking that Labour were going to get tough with the EU and clamp down in immigration?
0
reply
uktotalgamer
Badges: 13
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#7
Report 8 years ago
#7
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
So when Labour won large majorities in 1997, 2001 and 2005 what were their manifesto promises for "dealing with the EU and immigration"?

Did people vote them in thinking that Labour were going to get tough with the EU and clamp down in immigration?
People voted for them because:

> They make 'nice' policies with very little substance to them.
> Their 'nice' policies promise things that the tories simply don't, despite the fact that they have no chance of fulfilling them.
> Thatcher shut the mines, dontcha know.

Unfortunately, the way Labour are talking, I can see history repeating itself. If Labour get in; that's it. I'm off to Germany.
2
reply
MagicNMedicine
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#8
Report 8 years ago
#8
(Original post by uktotalgamer)
Unfortunately, the way Labour are talking, I can see history repeating itself. If Labour get in; that's it. I'm off to Germany.
Haha enjoy life in the heart of the EUSSR with the country that has more immigrants than anywhere else in Europe. Maybe all the Poles, Romanians and Turks that live in Germany will leave you some space to live?

And if you do manage to get a job you can enjoy the thought that your taxes are going to be used to bail out countries that are living beyond their means.
0
reply
Rlove95
Badges: 18
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#9
Report 8 years ago
#9
Immigration has become a lot tougher. I'm from immigrant family, and I have family back home that wouldn't even bother try come to England because they know how difficult it is. Most of them immigrate to South Africa. Obviously they aren't going to close the borders completely, that would just be dumb and probably wouldn't solve anything but I don't understand why everyone is acting like they aren't doing anything about immigration when they are actually doing quite a lot. How do you know that your views are the views of the mass public ?
0
reply
username878045
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#10
Report 8 years ago
#10
As far as I'm aware, our representative democracy is doing just as it should - we elect MPs partly because not everyone can vote on every law, but also because MPs have much greater expertise than the general public. Thus if the public want something ridiculous, the MPs don't vote for it, because they act in the country's best interest.
0
reply
Tom_green_day
Badges: 16
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#11
Report 8 years ago
#11
But the majority of people don't care about who comes to the country... It's only a minority, albeit a vocal majority, who don't want anyone else in...
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#12
Report 8 years ago
#12
(Original post by Mourinho<3)
I personally believe that democratic means have failed in the UK regarding the immigration issue. The politicans who rely on UK votes have, as soon as they get into power, dismissed the views of the mass public. The situation has occured where Britain has lost the right to control its own borders. The politicans who approved these laws have really excelled themselves on this matter.

To what extent do others agree? It would be interesting from my perspective to hear how many others my age, also students etc also feel the current democratic system is actually, well, rather not so democratic on major issues as we had hoped. This issue is not a recent one-it has been building up for years now. The ruling elite and countless corruption scandals in politics very much gives the impression of politicans being interested in furthering their own agendas and caring little for the people they claim to represent and the immigration debate reflects this.

Another issue-why can politicans claim "expenses"? It should come out your salary like everyone else, whether your salary be £50 a day or £500 a day.

EDIT; This poll is just regarding immigration but I feel it is a trend that can be seen in many other areas is my point.
Do we really need democracy? :confused:

I'm not entirely sure how well things would turn out well if we let the 'good ol' British public' pull the strings. I doubt that a majority of us (including myself) actually know how things work, or how things should be run to ensure the best outcome. Wouldn't it be better to leave matters like this (immigration, education, health, crime, ect ect) to the experts?

Those are my views. I'm not too bother if decisions are un-democratic. If they are good or not - that's what matters.
0
reply
felamaslen
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#13
Report 8 years ago
#13
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Do we really need democracy? :confused:

I'm not entirely sure how well things would turn out well if we let the 'good ol' British public' pull the strings. I doubt that a majority of us (including myself) actually know how things work, or how things should be run to ensure the best outcome. Wouldn't it be better to leave matters like this (immigration, education, health, crime, ect ect) to the experts?

Those are my views. I'm not too bother if decisions are un-democratic. If they are good or not - that's what matters.
If you prevent people from having a say over how they are governed, you have set yourself up for failure. Democracy is always better than tyranny. Human nature is not compatible with dictatorship.
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#14
Report 8 years ago
#14
(Original post by felamaslen)
If you prevent people from having a say over how they are governed, you have set yourself up for failure. Democracy is always better than tyranny. Human nature is not compatible with dictatorship.
Democracy can be tyranny, you do realise this? Tyranny is oppressive/cruel government rule. Democracy enables 51% of the population to effectively torture the remaining 41%, if that's what they wanted to do.

Also, I do not support dictatorships. Instead, a technocracy. This would not be a cruel one.
0
reply
felamaslen
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#15
Report 8 years ago
#15
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Democracy can be tyranny, you do realise this? Tyranny is oppressive/cruel government rule. Democracy enables 51% of the population to effectively torture the remaining 41%, if that's what they wanted to do.

Also, I do not support dictatorships. Instead, a technocracy. This would not be a cruel one.
Democracy combined with a bill of rights does not allow tyranny of the majority. That's what so many so-called "democrats" have failed to understand over the years.

Technocracy just breeds resentment.
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#16
Report 8 years ago
#16
(Original post by felamaslen)
Democracy combined with a bill of rights does not allow tyranny of the majority. That's what so many so-called "democrats" have failed to understand over the years.

Technocracy just breeds resentment.
In bold: How?
0
reply
felamaslen
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#17
Report 8 years ago
#17
(Original post by SHallowvale)
In bold: How?
How would you feel if you were ruled over by unelected overlords who had the audacity to tell you what was best for you?

Oh, and the thing about the bill of rights: if the bill of rights says that people have a right to freedom of speech for example, then no majority will ever be able to prevent a minority (e.g. one person) from airing their views. A right not to be discriminated against at work will prevent the majority from preventing you from getting a job. A right not to be tortured will prevent the majority from torturing anyone.
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#18
Report 8 years ago
#18
(Original post by felamaslen)
How would you feel if you were ruled over by unelected overlords who had the audacity to tell you what was best for you?

Oh, and the thing about the bill of rights: if the bill of rights says that people have a right to freedom of speech for example, then no majority will ever be able to prevent a minority (e.g. one person) from airing their views. A right not to be discriminated against at work will prevent the majority from preventing you from getting a job.
If they were reasonable in their approach and not total douchebags, then I wouldn't mind. That being said, they would not have to say what is best for me. Sometimes they may do, sometimes they may not.

I'm still not sure how a bill of rights would stop a majority from doing what they like. Surely they could just change it? And if a bill of rights prevents tyranny, then why not impliment such a thing into a non-democratic system?
0
reply
felamaslen
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#19
Report 8 years ago
#19
(Original post by SHallowvale)
If they were reasonable in their approach and not total douchebags, then I wouldn't mind. That being said, they would not have to say what is best for me. Sometimes they may do, sometimes they may not.

I'm still not sure how a bill of rights would stop a majority from doing what they like. Surely they could just change it? And if a bill of rights prevents tyranny, then why not impliment such a thing into a non-democratic system?
A non-democratic system is by definition tyrannical, unless no decisions are made by government and therefore anarchy exists. The point of the bill of rights is simply to place constraints over what the elected politicians may do, i.e. how much power they have. A proper democracy is not one in which the majority rules barbarically, it is one in which rules are set by the majority (directly or indirectly) within this framework of rights. The premise of representation would not exist in a non-democratic system even if the framework of rights did.

The problem with power is that it makes people into "total douchebags".
0
reply
Creat0r
Badges: 14
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#20
Report 8 years ago
#20
Ah a thread discussing something with only a small amount of immature posts!

I agree with what's said democracy doesn't really feel like democracy any more. I don't know what the hell the EU is but it is definitely not a democracy and in the future it won't be remembered as one. Someone said earlier only a minority are against immigration - where does this ridiculous idea come from? Why do people say it's a minority, everywhere I have ever worked, every college and university I have been to there is rarely support for immigration amongst the majority of the British people.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How did your AQA GCSE English Language Paper 1 go?

Loved the paper - Feeling positive (93)
20.09%
The paper was reasonable (177)
38.23%
Not feeling great about that exam... (119)
25.7%
It was TERRIBLE (74)
15.98%

Watched Threads

View All