What is it about Islam nowadays? Watch

Humra
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#421
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#421
(Original post by Ðaniel §on)
OK no religion = what now... you tell me?... what would society do?
Excuse me? What? That didn't make much sense, but there is nothing saying that if there was no religion we'd all be fornicating in the middle of the street. Morality is a lot older than religion, so I don't really see your point.
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Humra
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#422
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#422
(Original post by *Priya*)
An atheist world would defo not be much more peaceful thats for sure. Rape and murder would be even higher than today because many people would not have a set of rules to live by and common sense rarely prevails in this world. People would also not be put off commiting any crimes by the presence of a higher power, because oviously they wouldn't beleive in any. Its actually quite disconcerting when you go to do something bad and then you remember the cliche "God is watching you" lol

Anway all we can do is presume, because the world will never be fully atheist, there will always be one religion or another.
Of course, because a Muslim has never raped some one...because a Christian has never murdered someone..

And what you just stated above just shows that religion roots into fear of God and that people can't just be 'good', they need something to fear to be good. And like I said before Morals are older than religion, and we have grown to be civilised (well most of us I hope) so it doesn't mean that since I'm an Atheist I'm going to go round murdering or evben raping people because I have no set values, because i do have values. i don't need religion or God to be peering over my shoulder to make me be a good little girl, I can do it myself because I and other people (whether they belong to a religious group or not) have morals and have an amazing ability to empathise with others.
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Humra
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#423
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#423
(Original post by Ðaniel §on)
not everything can be explaind by science and this is where the higher power comes to play....
Centuries ago the rising of the sun could not be explained...now through science we can explain it as it is the centre of the solar system and Earth and many other planets orbits round this glorious sun. You may be surprised to know that the Egyptians worshipped the sun, because they could not explain what was happening so that was where the 'higher power came into play' with that. Just because science cannot prove something doesn't mean that there is a God. It's like when someone couldn't explain why the water boiled over a hot flame and evaporated, it doesn't mean that at that time it must have been God who did it and not the hot flame providing heat to the water..
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Humra
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#424
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#424
(Original post by *Priya*)
OK bigrico, go off and preach atheism elsewhere please. I think the only subject that all of the world's religions can agree with and unite together on is the death of atheism, because there is definitely a higher superficial force than humans. You my friend, should think about doing some philosophy, it will really change your views.

Can you even prove ther eis a higher power? I think it's people like you who are absolute hipocrites. You say Muslims shouldn't go round blowing people up just because they are not muslims, yet you seem perfectly content on bringing the death of atheism? How would you do that may I ask?
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al-CIAda
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#425
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#425
(Original post by *Priya*)
al-CIAda I read like a few lines of your post and then realised what you were talking about and coudn't be bothered to read the rest.

You post there reminded me of what Mohammed Sidique Khan said in his videotape release after the 7/7 bombings (obviosuly after it lol) of how it was the fault of Tony Blair and of the West that had led him to commit these actions.

The mother of one of the victims of this atrocity who is a priest, was talking in a programme last night about forgiveness I tihnk it was, and she was talking about how disgusting it was of the bomber to even try and justify his actions. She said that ANYBODY can justify ANY action of theirs - say a rapist rapes a girl - he can justify his actions easily to himself like the girl shoudn't have been wearing such provocative dress, it as her fault, she was asking for it, she made me angry etc etc, but it doesn't make the crime he did right, does it?

There is no way you can justify flying a plane into civilian buildings while they are unaware (as samba points out a few posts above), in comparison to the death of civilians who are in a country like Iraq/Afghanistan who KNOW that they are in a state of war and that they could be killed anytime.

Its a complete joke. If you want to get revenge on the West for all those "problems" you have described al-CIAda, then please don't advocate the sneaking up on people and blowing them up when they aren't looking method like these terrorists have used for it is a method of "warfare" used by cowards, and you trying to justify it is not only disgusting, but it makes you a coward too.

EDIT: Oh yeh, and also in this programme last night, there was this muslim guy, and he saying that this bombers are so stupid etc that they think that they are going to go to paradise for their terrorist activities and then he quoted from the Islmaic scriptures that any muslim who commits suicide, be it for God's work or whatever, whoever commits suicide will not be allowed into heaven. And he was like so sure of his quote that he said if any scholar would like to show me exactly how these guys can get into heaven, then I would love to listen. I just wondered if this was true lol cos it makes the bombers look really dumb and uneducated about a religion for which they are blowing themselves up for!
yes.. its blatantly obvious you didnt read my post priya

if you had you'd have read this part:

THE FACT IS THIS: the western world is full of hypocrites who expect muslims to feel bad about 9/11, when the attrocities visited on the muslim world over the last several hundred years far outweigh 9/11 and 7/11 etc in both the sheer oppressiveness of them and the death tolls. thats not to say muslims should not feel remorse, but its woefully hypocritical for you to expect saddness, remorse, "not in my name" kinda behaviour when the western world are the last people to address their own attrocities in such a fashion. WOE UNTO THEE!

no true muslim can justify 9/11 etc with their religion, but its perfectly natural for those who have been under the boot of others to feel a little joy when someone bloodys the nose of those who they feel oppress them.
i'll add to that and happily conceed that there is a similar hypocrisy within muslims on the issue, however, i still think however that if you look at the history of muslim terrorism against nations like the US or UK or France, spain it is a direct result of policies of those countries within the muslim world. i.e french occupation of algeria, anglo-american attacks on iraq/afghanistan/etc. before the UK got involved in the gulf wars and afghanistan etc, how many attacks by muslim terrorists had there been on the UK ? off the top of my head i cant think of any, although i'm not british so i may not have as good an idea as yourself. similarly, before spain got involved in the wars, how many attacks had there been by muslim terrorists in spain? how many attacks had there been by muslim terrorists on australians before the recent wars? the US has had previous attacks by muslim terrorists, but their continued support for israel and vetoing of any UNSC resolution raised against them probably accounts for that in itself. from what i can tell the only countries that have recieved major terrorist attacks by muslims in recent times are those who have directly gone to war in muslim countries and supported those who do. i'm not supporting the terrorism or killing of innocents, but to suggest there is no relationship between the two is dishonest of anyone.

as for:

You post there reminded me of what Mohammed Sidique Khan said in his videotape release after the 7/7 bombings (obviosuly after it lol) of how it was the fault of Tony Blair and of the West that had led him to commit these actions.
you think anyone from west (including most of your politicians in THEIR press conferences and releases) is any different ? they will sit there and say "ohh what about 9/11, what about 7/7, what about madrid, what about istanbul, what about bali, etcetcetc" the list of grievances the west has are just as real as the grievances the muslim world has (although arguably negligible in comparison if you compare the scope of them - although i'm sure that argument is all subjective and relative to who you are etc). just because muslims may have done bad things,doesnt mean they didnt have legitimate grievances and doesnt absolve the western world for the responsibility or consequences of their actions. it IS their fault the bombed and invaded iraq under false pretenses. it IS their fault they pressured the algerian military into a coup de tat in '92. it IS russias fault they carpet bombed grozny, merely because the chechen's, like most of the rest of the soviet block declared independance. many of these things ARE the fault of the west, just as things like 7/7 etc are the fault of muslims. i dont agree with blowing up trains.. but when starve entire nations for a decade and then bomb them and occupy them - you gotta understand that some people are gonna try and get back at you in some way. and when YOUR tactics are so low as to starve a country for 10 years before you bomb the crap out of it, who are you to get on the moral high horse about suicide bombings or 9/11 etc.

i'm not saying both sides dont have their faults, clearly they do. i'm just pointing out blatant hypocrisy
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Humra
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#426
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#426
(Original post by 19841984)
The only reason why Muslims, and religious people in general are able to make such strives in damaging society, and curbing our freedoms is because the secular or atheist proportion are to lazy, politically correct or/and afraid to stand up against religion people.

I HATE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, AND I CALL UPON AL OF YOU TO SPREAD THE HATE TO ALL THE ENLIGHTENED ONES.
I don't think so. My best friends are devout Muslims (well two of them anyway) and I can accept them as they are as I've noticed that some people need a god to survive. It isn't anything to do with miracles, but the faith and belief that there is something after life sustains them in a way. And i'm sure many other people may feel the same way.
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Humra
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#427
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#427
(Original post by al-CIAda)
i'm not saying both sides dont have their faults, clearly they do. i'm just pointing out blatant hypocrisy
Hipocrisy in what? I don't get it. Both sides are suffering and just because the west is richer than the east doesn't mean that all those in the west are to blame for it.
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Humra
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#428
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#428
(Original post by *Priya*)
No my friend, there will not be LESS divide, there will be MORE divide. As you know all human beings are unique in their thoughts, hence in an 'atheistic' :p: world everyone will just do what they personally want to do not giving two ****s about the feelings of others, hence leading to MORE conflict.
I don't think you can prove that in anyway, and even if you tried you'd just humiliate yourself. There is nothing to even remotely say that in an atheistic world all of us would be mass criminals and everyone would be murdered etc..
You don't really seem to have much faith in the Human Race, and expect them/us to all go bonkers when and if there is news to prove there is no God.
I agree every person is unique, but that doesn't mean a devout christian who hasn't ever committed a crime would become a serial killer over night just because he converted to atheism (could happen :rolleyes: )

Religion provides more common ground to the people of this world as a whole than your giving it credit for.
Not really, most religions do have very similar laws, but as an atheist might say this is because we have an ability to make sense of the world around us and learn from mistakes and these laws may have been made (before religion) to account for them.
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Servant of Allah
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#429
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#429
(Original post by 19841984)
I believe all religions are negative, however, I have a strong conviction that Islam is the most dangerous of them all, as it looks down upon all non-Muslims, and Muslims always have a victim mentality, which causes resentment. Never mind the fact that Islam is spreading around the world at an extraordinary rate, never mind the fact that Western freedom is being cropped to cater for the arrogance of Muslims, never mind the fact that Islam is the biggest religion in the world, and probably will take over the world in a century, Muslims continue to act like they are being persecuted, and that there is a 'jihad' going on in the world. Muslims, with their suppression of women and other minorities, their lack of respect for non-Muslims make me sick. Do not dare telling me that my views are stereotypical or that I am describing extremist Muslims, because almost all Muslims are like this!
In all seriousness are u ok?
What makes you believe that all Muslim's are bad or arrogant? I also would like to know why you think Islam is dangerous?
Yes i will say your views are Stereotypical and tottaly bias because all you seem to be doing is blabbing on about what you think of Islam.

Peace
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al-CIAda
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#430
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#430
(Original post by Humra)
Hipocrisy in what? I don't get it. Both sides are suffering and just because the west is richer than the east doesn't mean that all those in the west are to blame for it.
ok, so theres no hypocrisy in expecting muslims to feel bad about 9/11 when no one in the western world cares about the millions of muslims killed by western invasions, bombing campaigns, sanctions, etc ? its less about blame and more about responsibility. the fact is, the west IS responsible for invading iraq. they are directly responsible for probably over 100,000 deaths so far this war, and that much and more during the last war. the west IS responsible for the UN sanctions that lead to the death of 1.5 million iraqis. of course they're responsible otherwise one of those western nations would've veto'd the UNSC resolution, yes? since the actions that the west is responsible for have lead to millions of muslim deaths, and the western world really doesnt feel bad about it at all.. why should muslims feel bad about 4000 deaths on 9/11? non-muslims expecting muslims to do something for them that they wont even do for muslims

there is the hypocrisy displayed for you.
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Humra
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#431
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#431
(Original post by bigrico)
I just did a wee trawl through the internet there and their are 1.1 billion atheist and non religious people in the world.

I am delighted by that, and also that Sweden is the most Atheist country in the world.

I knew I liked those Swedes, not only are that generally very attractive but they are also very clever.

And also the Scandanavian countries as a whole are pretty non-religious people.

And guess what they are probably the most peaceful, with the lowest crime rate and also have the highest standard of living in the world as countries.

Shocking that, I thought you had to be religious to be prosperous, peaceful and healthy.
:congrats:
:adore: I'd love to go to Sweden now... :proud:
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Servant of Allah
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#432
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#432
Humra: Are you trying to say that a country that consists of people who are athiests, there is more peace?

Peace
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Humra
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#433
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#433
(Original post by al-CIAda)
since the actions that the west is responsible for have lead to millions of muslim deaths, and the western world really doesnt feel bad about it at all.. why should muslims feel bad about 4000 deaths on 9/11? non-muslims expecting muslims to do something for them that they wont even do for muslims
Excuse me but have the muslims even asked for something to be done? and who says the west don't do anything. Even if they tried, then muslims would get pissed off and say why are you attacking us etc. Face it, when the west tries to help muslims reject them, and even if they accept the help they don't make a big deal out of it. Millions of people die every day whether they are muslims or non-muslims, who are you to say that muslims should be favoured over the others and help should be specific.


so theres no hypocrisy in expecting muslims to feel bad about 9/11 when no one in the western world cares about the millions of muslims killed by western invasions, bombing campaigns, sanctions, etc ? its less about blame and more about responsibility...the fact is, the west IS responsible for invading iraq. they are directly responsible for probably over 100,000 deaths so far this war, and that much and more during the last war.
Well the reason the war started was because they wanted to help the iraqis (and among other things as well I suppose) also you may have not noticed but people die in wars...doesn' matter whether they are innocent or not there is an inevitability that a lot of people will die in war.
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Humra
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#434
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#434
(Original post by LovinMyDeen)
Humra: Are you trying to say that a country that consists of people who are athiests, there is more peace?

Peace
I didn't say that...did I?

Anyway the evidence speaks for itself really. There is so much conflict is countries where there are strong religious influences. The strongest is in America and the crime rate there is the highest. I'm not saying becoming Atheist is the answer (we should follow what we believe) but there is nothing wrong with a Atheistic society as many people have said.
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al-CIAda
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#435
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#435
(Original post by Humra)
I didn't say that...did I?

Anyway the evidence speaks for itself really. There is so much conflict is countries where there are strong religious influences. The strongest is in America and the crime rate there is the highest. I'm not saying becoming Atheist is the answer (we should follow what we believe) but there is nothing wrong with a Atheistic society as many people have said.
i think you could argue that the strongest is in saudi arabia and it has one of the very lowest crime rates
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Humra
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#436
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#436
(Original post by al-CIAda)
i think you could argue that the strongest is in saudi arabia and it has one of the very lowest crime rates
But that is due to segregation of the sexes, and there is very little democracy there as it is very restricted in its laws. Also the laws there are not only too harsh but they treat women and non-muslims second class...
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al-CIAda
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#437
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#437
(Original post by Humra)
Excuse me but have the muslims even asked for something to be done? and who says the west don't do anything. Even if they tried, then muslims would get pissed off and say why are you attacking us etc. Face it, when the west tries to help muslims reject them, and even if they accept the help they don't make a big deal out of it. Millions of people die every day whether they are muslims or non-muslims, who are you to say that muslims should be favoured over the others and help should be specific.


Well the reason the war started was because they wanted to help the iraqis (and among other things as well I suppose) also you may have not noticed but people die in wars...doesn' matter whether they are innocent or not there is an inevitability that a lot of people will die in war.

the war was not started to "help iraqis". thats rubbish. george bush amongst others started the war because saddam had "chemical and biological weapons" - while i'm here it is worth adding that the CIA helped saddam to power via coup de tat and the US gave the chemical and bioligical weapons to saddam originally so he could go to war against the iranians. the same chemical weapons that he supposedly used against the kurds halabja. the gassing of those kurds being his big crime against humanity. the mission only changed from "find the mystery WMD" to "topple saddam" when it became increasingly apparent that there WAS no WMD.

DO YOU CALL THIS "HELPING" THE IRAQI PEOPLE? even if we do argue that saddam has been removed from power and its a GOOD thing, how has this HELPED the iraqi people? they have less food, less clean water, less electricity, less security than they did under saddam and if you think the govt has been helped by bombing it into democracy then you're wrong. the iraq govt is weaker and totally fractured down ethnic and religious lines. All the west has done by removing the strong central govt that was already in place is to ensure that iraq now looks like lebanon did during the peak of the lebanese civil war. (probably because iraq IS in a civil war. one day 50 sunnis are shot, the next day 50 shia are blown up, etc)

if the west is able to assemble a coup at the drop of a hat, similar to what they did in iraq when saddam got into power or iran when the "shah" got into power, why did not just change the regime? why not just coup in some technocrats and slowly work them around towards a more liberal state/democracy? surely this would've been a better option. similarly, it would've kept the armed forces together and removed a reason for a large chunk of the insurgency that you see today. i.e when the us took control in iraq they axed most of the iraqi military because they were all "baathists" etc.

this is the kind of "help" that muslims are accustomed too from the west, humra. personally, it dont find that it HELPS us too much. it might HELP the US get a weak "friendly" govt in a major oil producing nation that will buy up weapons contracts (they have too, their military is decimated) and sell oil to the US for us dollars (saddam had previously been selling in euros).... but i dont think the average iraqi has been HELPED too much. probably why the "coalition of the willing" didnt get recieved with a ticket-tape parade like the expected. :rolleyes:
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al-CIAda
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#438
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#438
(Original post by Humra)
But that is due to segregation of the sexes, and there is very little democracy there as it is very restricted in its laws. Also the laws there are not only too harsh but they treat women and non-muslims second class...
segregation of the sexes is mandated by islam (religion). democracy (i.e sovereignty of the people) is forbidden by islam (sovereignty is with god - i.e religion.) the laws, i'm sure your refering to stoning of adulters and amputation for thieves etc is mandated by islam (religion again), etc etc


so as i said....... religion is the direct effect of low crime rate in saudi arabia.
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Humra
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#439
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#439
Well I pretty much agree that they most likely did go to war for other reasons than help the Iraqis, but if you haven't noticed they themselves are causing more conflict and making the change even more painful and damaging then it would have been originally. Also Just because George Bush has made a mistake, doesn't mean the rest of the west think like he does! Not all of the west had the same intentions as Blair and Bush did. In fact most people in the west protested against the war and did everything they could to stop it.
Different charities and other organisations have tried to help the Iraqis and other countries too. You can't say the west does nothing.

Personally I think the rich are reall bastrads..sorry but it has been suggested many times that if they just gave about 4% of their welth (i think) that povrty would be eradicated. Just shows... And that include Muslims who are millionnaires/billionnaires.. not everything is left to the west, the East (the rich on their part) must also be responsible for the things that go on there, yet they don't even seem to try.
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Humra
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#440
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#440
(Original post by al-CIAda)
segregation of the sexes is mandated by islam (religion). democracy (i.e sovereignty of the people) is forbidden by islam (sovereignty is with god - i.e religion.) the laws, i'm sure your refering to stoning of adulters and amputation for thieves etc is mandated by islam (religion again), etc etc


so as i said....... religion is the direct effect of low crime rate in saudi arabia.
Not really, people just live in fear...nothing good about that.
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