Why the blatant hatred and disregard for Marxism ? Watch

DerPreußenPanzer
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Hi

I'm a young and self educated Marxist. I had to do this because what everyone knows is what they have been told in secondary school History. Which at my opinion is biased and unfair. To follow up on my original point, why is there so much ignorance and dare-say hatred for Marx and his infamous work......please express all opinions.

Kindest Regards Adom.
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ckingalt
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It is not usually hatred for Marx. He was idealistic and well intentioned. The disregard is directed towards the implementation and practice of communism. The ultimate result is inevitably oppressive. This debate has occurred thousands of times on TSR alone. Supporters of absolute Socialism/Communism will retort that "true Communism" has never been practiced by a state. Their idea of true Communism would be one where all the masses embrace its principles without invasive influence being applied to force conformity. History has proven that expectation to be untenable.

Communists would like us to believe that men have failed to understand the true nature of the ideology. The truth is that the ideology failed to take into account, the true nature of men.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by ckingalt)
It is not usually hatred for Marx. He was idealistic and well intentioned. The disregard is directed towards the implementation and practice of communism. The ultimate result is inevitably oppressive. This debate has occurred thousands of times on TSR alone. Supporters of absolute Socialism/Communism will retort that "true Communism" has never been practiced by a state. Their idea of true Communism would be one where all the masses embrace its principles without invasive influence being applied to force conformity. History has proven that expectation to be untenable.

Communists would like us to believe that men have failed to understand the true nature of the ideology. The truth is that the ideology failed to take into account, the true nature of men.
I doubt that the states which call/called themself ''communist'' really strive/strived to become communist (as Marx (or Lenin?) suggested they would do). At best they are/were authoritarian socialist states, but not communist. Communism is where there would be no state.

I accept that 'true' communism would not work in reality, but that would be because of the flaws in the ideology rather than how it has been implimented/used in real life.
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the bear
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Marxism is a failed Victorian belief system like Spiritualism ... it has brought enduring misery to untold millions of people. you need help Adom if you think this is the way forward.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Hi

I'm a young and self educated Marxist. I had to do this because what everyone knows is what they have been told in secondary school History. Which at my opinion is biased and unfair. To follow up on my original point, why is there so much ignorance and dare-say hatred for Marx and his infamous work......please express all opinions.

Kindest Regards Adom.
On paper Marxism is great. Its the best thing since slices bread.

In the real world Marxism brings nothing other than misery and pestilence.
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Moosferatu
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The right don't even need to hate Marxists. Other Marxists do that perfectly well.
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Fizzel
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Because Marx's idea have proven to be wrong. Some of his assumptions were wrong and he failed to predict future events. For those reasons it can be disregarded broadly speaking. After seeing what actually happens in states where Marx's ideas were implemented or attempted to be implemented, then its pretty easy to see why people hate it. It didn't exactly go well for people.
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felamaslen
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Have you ever heard of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Che or Lenin? These men represent the outcome of Marxism: a vile, anti-human creed based on neither evidence nor goodwill, but resentment, spite and control. People hate Marxism because of the enormous damage it has done to humanity.
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username1039383
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The ruling class have brainwashed the masses.
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Boromir
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Because his twisted ideas have killed people in the millions.

There's no such thing as an educated Marxist.
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DerPreußenPanzer
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(Original post by felamaslen)
Have you ever heard of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Che or Lenin? These men represent the outcome of Marxism: a vile, anti-human creed based on neither evidence nor goodwill, but resentment, spite and control. People hate Marxism because of the enormous damage it has done to humanity.
Either you are confusing Stalinism and Marxism. They are not true Marxist states. Relations and means of production should be given to the people, not for impulsive accumulation of capital and drive towards corporate profit.
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Boromir
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Either you are confusing Stalinism and Marxism. They are not true Marxist states. Relations and means of production should be given to the people, not for impulsive accumulation of capital and drive towards corporate profit.
The default response from a Commie in denial.

If Marxism worked, tyrants wouldn't appear whenever that dead ideology gets implemented.

Give up with Marxism, it's a scam and has been debunked. I recommend you read any economics textbook.
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Presenttime
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Its a touchy subject, its gone through so many phases through history, and is still highly relevant. I'm a Marxist at heart , but my head sees that communism has failed more often than the capitalist model
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felamaslen
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Either you are confusing Stalinism and Marxism. They are not true Marxist states. Relations and means of production should be given to the people, not for impulsive accumulation of capital and drive towards corporate profit.
"Given to the people" translates, in practice, to "given to to the authorities". What makes you think that a Marxist government is going to be any more kind to "the people" than corporations are? Essentially, by creating a Marxist state you are restricting people's ability to engage in business with each other, for absolutely no gain. The end result is famine and oligarchy, as seen in the USSR, Mao's China, North Korea etc.

Stalinism is simply Marxism taken to its practical conclusion. Claiming that all Marxist states are not "true" is simply a cop-out. Okay, so you have Marxism but it's a different "kind", it's the "true" Marxism as opposed to the Marxism that people have tried and which has consistently shown itself to be an abject failure? Not a very compelling case you're making for yourself there.
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DerPreußenPanzer
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(Original post by Boromir)
The default response from a Commie in denial.

If Marxism worked, tyrants wouldn't appear whenever that dead ideology gets implemented.

Give up with Marxism, it's a scam and has been debunked. I recommend you read any economics textbook.
There was once an evil woman named Maggie. And she stated a famous acronym TINA, 'There is no Alternative'. Should a common man struggle to make his ends meet, I believe something should be done, and a form of Marxism more or less interpreted in contemporary socialism could work. But I will not accept the fact that society will drown in its own internal contradictions posed by Capitalism.
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Boromir
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
There was once an evil woman named Maggie. And she stated a famous acronym TINA, 'There is no Alternative'. Should a common man struggle to make his ends meet, I believe something should be done, and a form of Marxism more or less interpreted in contemporary socialism could work. But I will not accept the fact that society will drown in its own internal contradictions posed by Capitalism.
Again, read up on economics. Radical fiction like Marxism doesn't count.
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Bill_Gates
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those in power control the past.

also marx in particular was commonly associated with communism which didn't really work out the best.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Either you are confusing Stalinism and Marxism. They are not true Marxist states. Relations and means of production should be given to the people, not for impulsive accumulation of capital and drive towards corporate profit.
Cuba was vaguely close to the Marxist model. Private business and even home ownership were abolished. Aside from creating a reputable health care system it has been a disaster, Cuba was a millionaire's playground with money flowing in but has since become destitute (was dependent on the USSR) and people still drive 50 year old cars.

Since handing power to his brother Cuba has once again begun to embrace capitalism.

(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Hi

I'm a young and self educated Marxist. I had to do this because what everyone knows is what they have been told in secondary school History. Which at my opinion is biased and unfair. To follow up on my original point, why is there so much ignorance and dare-say hatred for Marx and his infamous work......please express all opinions.

Kindest Regards Adom.
Ignorance is true on both sides so i'll take that out of the equation, people on both sides blindly believe in the extremes and will not acknowledge any downsides. With that being said while hatred is a little strong there are many people on both sides with an open mind and plenty on the right acknowledge the advantages of some degree of socialised healthcare while people on the left acknowledge the need for currency to maintain price signals (many communists want abolition of currency - not sure if this is Marxism or another brand). Heck, it''s interpreted that Marx himself believed capitalism would enable wonderful things, he just did not believe it was sustainable.

In regards to the matter at hand hatred may be a strong word but it's likely that the perception exists because Marxism is a potential threat to capitalism be it a purer form or the status quo. My personally gripes against Marxist ideology relate to the assault on even moderately successful people that would occur, that the state has no right to take 90% of peoples income and at the extreme abolition of fiat currency would be a disaster in terms of incentive to develop efficiently.

In short as a man born into poverty intent on escape i find Marxist principles to be offensive, additionally i don't believe Marxism is applicable in an economic system based on scarcity. Only once we move to a system of abundance (i.e. replication technology or space mining) do i consider the possibility that it could be applicable.
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DerPreußenPanzer
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Cuba was vaguely close to the Marxist model. Private business and even home ownership were abolished. Aside from creating a reputable health care system it has been a disaster, Cuba was a millionaire's playground with money flowing in but has since become destitute (was dependent on the USSR) and people still drive 50 year old cars.

Since handing power to his brother Cuba has once again begun to embrace capitalism.



Ignorance is true on both sides so i'll take that out of the equation, people on both sides blindly believe in the extremes and will not acknowledge any downsides. With that being said while hatred is a little strong there are many people on both sides with an open mind and plenty on the right acknowledge the advantages of some degree of socialised healthcare while people on the left acknowledge the need for currency to maintain price signals (many communists want abolition of currency - not sure if this is Marxism or another brand). Heck, it''s interpreted that Marx himself believed capitalism would enable wonderful things, he just did not believe it was sustainable.

In regards to the matter at hand hatred may be a strong word but it's likely that the perception exists because Marxism is a potential threat to capitalism be it a purer form or the status quo. My personally gripes against Marxist ideology relate to the assault on even moderately successful people that would occur, that the state has no right to take 90% of peoples income and at the extreme abolition of fiat currency would be a disaster in terms of incentive to develop efficiently.

In short as a man born into poverty intent on escape i find Marxist principles to be offensive, additionally i don't believe Marxism is applicable in an economic system based on scarcity. Only once we move to a system of abundance (i.e. replication technology or space mining) do i consider the possibility that it could be applicable.


Thank You, you actually presented a proper argument, and did not call me foolish or insane, just because I like Marx. I come from a poor background too, why do you find Marxist principles to be offensive ?
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Rakas21
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(Original post by DerPreußenPanzer)
Thank You, you actually presented a proper argument, and did not call me foolish or insane, just because I like Marx. I come from a poor background too, why do you find Marxist principles to be offensive ?
Thanks.

What i find offensive is the notion that if i escape poverty through merit i should be held back by excessive taxation or heaven forbid i could be deemed to be too successful and subject to a salary cap.

Acknowledging the need for welfare support is one thing but the human race develops fastest when its brilliant minds are not held back, we should encourage the likes of Elon Musk or Bill Gates to develop technologies and make billions. I mean if my children grew up in a Marxist state what incentive would they have to be the best of the best given that they may not be able to reap the rewards of their efforts.
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