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    One god is rational. eg. Hinduims has numerous gods - dosnt make sense.

    Also life is a test to see who are truthful and who are liars.

    Allah is the creator. He knows & sees everything.

    While man knows the solar system does he completely know what's on other planets? No.

    ALso the Quran was revealed in the middleof a desert 1400 years BEFORE there was scientific discoveries.

    I'll reply later......
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    Mr Chairperson/Judge/Ayaz :P, my muslim brothers and sisters of the floor, and my worthy CON opposition, I am here to argue today that there is a god.

    Muslims believe in God for numerous reasons. Firstly, if you look around the world right now, you will see that everything has been designed in such a perfect manner. Plants and animals have clear signs of being designed for specific reasons, and modern theories of evolution or cosmology cannot explain the perfection of nature. Some could argue that the wonders of nature can simply be explained by theories such as natural selection and "survival of the fittest", however, tell me, how can nature work in such a perfect manner without something controlling it?

    You stated that "Muslims claim that he created the heavens and the earth yet there is no proof". However, this is an irrational statement, as there is strong evidence supporting Islamic belief inculding that of the creation story. This is contained in the holy Quran which for Muslims is enough proof to show anything. The Quran contains scientific facts which are way over 1000+ years ahead of their time. It contains scientific evidence such as that of the common scientific term, "the primordial soup" which years ago, people used to laugh at, which have now been proven to be correct. The Quran shows detailled knowledge of many other aspects to this universe such as the role of water in our world and other such things. The Quran is not in contradiction to science at all. All these things indicate that there must be a God who created everything!
    You also said that science proves how planets were formed and how man evolved. Firstly as I proved above, the Quran also contains many scientific knowledge which man has only been able to prove today. Science therefore does not have to clash with religious beliefs, and in fact many imams believe that science can work together with religion. There is no doubt that Allah created the world and that the Quran and is true, but this does not mean that science cannot explain what is not said in the Quran. However, you were not specific, but if you are talking about modern day theories such as evolution and the BigBang, I would like to point out that these are no more fact than Islamic belief. They are only theories, and even they have not been proved to be 100% accurate. You ask why Islam does not prove these things, yet it does, as there is numerous proof available in the Quran, the life of the Prophet (saw) etc..
    Going back to your original question, how can muslims believe in a god, I'd like to refute that and ask you, how can muslims not believe in a god? Some people believe that there is too much evil and suffering in the world, and that a caring god would not allow this, however this point of view is quite simply ignorant, as life is a test and suffering shows your endurance. Some may also argue that the belief in God is simply made up to comfort those who want to believe that something is looking after them, and to comfort those who cannot believe that you die and that is all. However a Muslim would argue that this is not true, and if people just made up this whole belief about god and the afterlife, then they would not say anything about hell, how is the threat of hell comforting?

    The evidence that God exists in this world is all around us, every second of the day. Do you honestly believe that everything just *happened*, man got his intelligent from nowere, man gained the ability to learn, to explore, to discover, without something controlling it? Do you think that the numerous faiths in this world, all got together and decided to make up this belief about God? There is evidence in numerous faiths about the existence of God. Millions of people all over the world, have personal experiences which confirm in their mind about the existence of God. How can you refute otherwise?

    I strongly believe that there is a God and that life is a test, for the afterlife. The existence of God is rational, and we are being helped by God to believe in him, by numerous signs and evidence throughout this world to help us and guide us in the right path. Belief in God is the only rational explanation. The question you should be asking yourself is not, where is the proof that God exists, no, I ask you broz n sisters, where is the proof that God doesn't exist?
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    CON

    Just about everything seems to have a beginning...as you stated in your post. The laws of science show that even things which look the same through our lifetime, like the sun and other stars, are running down. Each second, the sun is using up its fuel. So, therefore, it cannot last forever, it had to have a beginning. The same can be shown to be true for the entire universe.

    So when you claim that God created the entire universe, i'm going to ask the question.....where did God come from?

    If God created matter and enery, who or what accomplished that for God? If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?

    The Quran makes clear that God is outside of time. He is eternal and has no beginning or end. He is infinite.

    'He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.'

    Is this logical? How can we recognise the evidence for an intelligence creator?
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    Salaam everybody.
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    (Original post by lil_one)
    Mr Chairperson/Judge/Ayaz :P, my muslim brothers and sisters of the floor, and my worthy CON opposition, I am here to argue today that there is a god.

    Muslims believe in God for numerous reasons. Firstly, if you look around the world right now, you will see that everything has been designed in such a perfect manner. Plants and animals have clear signs of being designed for specific reasons, and modern theories of evolution or cosmology cannot explain the perfection of nature. Some could argue that the wonders of nature can simply be explained by theories such as natural selection and "survival of the fittest", however, tell me, how can nature work in such a perfect manner without something controlling it?

    You stated that "Muslims claim that he created the heavens and the earth yet there is no proof". However, this is an irrational statement, as there is strong evidence supporting Islamic belief inculding that of the 1. creation story. This is contained in the holy Quran which 2. for Muslims is enough proof to show anything. The Quran contains scientific facts which are way over 1000+ years ahead of their time. It contains scientific evidence such as that of the common scientific term, "the primordial soup" which years ago, 3. people used to laugh at, which have now been proven to be correct. 4. The Quran shows detailled knowledge of many other aspects to this universe such as the role of water in our world and other such things. The Quran is not in contradiction to science at all. All these things indicate that there must be a God who created everything!
    You also said that science proves how planets were formed and how man evolved. Firstly as I proved above, the Quran also contains many scientific knowledge which man has only been able to prove today. Science therefore does not have to clash with religious beliefs, and in fact many imams believe that science can work together with religion. There is no doubt that Allah created the world and that the Quran and is true, but this does not mean that science cannot explain what is not said in the Quran. However, you were not specific, but if you are talking about modern day theories such as evolution and the BigBang, I would like to point out that these are no more fact than Islamic belief. They are only theories, and even they have not been proved to be 100% accurate. You ask why Islam does not prove these things, yet it does, 5. as there is numerous proof available in the Quran, the life of the Prophet (saw) etc.. Going back to your original question, how can muslims believe in a god, I'd like to refute that and ask you, how can muslims not believe in a god? Some people believe that there is too much evil and suffering in the world, and that a caring god would not allow this, however this point of view is quite simply ignorant, as life is a test and suffering shows your endurance. Some may also argue that the belief in God is simply made up to comfort those who want to believe that something is looking after them, and to comfort those who cannot believe that you die and that is all. However a Muslim would argue that this is not true, and if people just made up this whole belief about god and the afterlife, then they would not say anything about hell, how is the threat of hell comforting?

    The evidence that God exists in this world is all around us, every second of the day. Do you honestly believe that everything just *happened*, man got his intelligent from nowere, man gained the ability to learn, to explore, to discover, without something controlling it? Do you think that the numerous faiths in this world, all got together and decided to make up this belief about God? There is evidence in numerous faiths about the existence of God. Millions of people all over the world, have personal experiences which confirm in their mind about the existence of God. How can you refute otherwise?

    I strongly believe that there is a God and that life is a test, for the afterlife. The existence of God is rational, and we are being helped by God to believe in him, by numerous signs and evidence throughout this world to help us and guide us in the right path. Belief in God is the only rational explanation. The question you should be asking yourself is not, where is the proof that God exists, no, I ask you broz n sisters, where is the proof that God doesn't exist?
    For numerous reasons - Every consequence has a reason; every action has a reaction; those are the laws of physics. What your telling me is, that, in order to provide rational (which to me is worthless) explaination of these 'actions' you cook up the theory about god? So god exists so that thru him you explain your 'numerous reasons'.

    Firstly, if you look around the world right now, you will see that everything has been designed in such a perfect manner - I would hardly say that! Perfect manner? I don't get what your talking about. How can something be perfect? I don't see a particular trend or anything in nature. Anyone whos studied science can tell you how plants reproduce and grow. They don't have to be created! What your god made seeds fall from the sky? Or did he use his almighty power to grow those weeds in my backgroud? I could do without them, thankyou! When you say that 'modern' theories of evolution and cosmology don't explain this 'perfection if nature' you're talking about, I say to you: I don't believe you! Back up your claims atleast! I won't believe anything you say right away!

    Some could argue that the wonders of nature can simply be explained by theories such as natural selection and "survival of the fittest", however, tell me, how can nature work in such a perfect manner without something controlling it? - Lady, if you dont believe in this, you'll be creamed alive! If your not fit your no where! I don't even need to explain my self here! Try leaving everything to your god, and see how 'well' you do then!

    1. I'm not talking about some 'creation story'; I'm talking about facts, proof, and reality, rather than fiction. You've read the Da Vinci Code? If you believe the 'story' there, we should all be worshiping babes then!!

    2. So, if the story is only for the Muslims, what about the others? Or do we have to join a 'religion' for that? Come to think of it, you probably don't even know what religion means!

    3. We'll they laughed because they found it funny; give them a rational explaination and they'll calm down! Give me a rational explaination about Islam, and I'll leave you alone!

    4. To me the Quran is like any other book. I happily subsitute it for Sidney Sheldon; atleast I know who wrote that book! You claim you Allah wrote that book? Well, it could have been any guy who decided to have a little fun, and created a fantasy world for you guys! It's your book, but you don'y know where it came from? It fell from the sky; yeh, that's rational explaination don't you think? Bah!

    5. I don't believe in prophets or whatever, so I don't believe you.

    OOC: I will argue the latter part of your post later
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    Muslims say that we will die, and then become alive again!
    Does that even sound credible? Your telling us that there is a thing so powerful that he can raise us from the graves?
    Then why doesn't he/it/whatever stop all these famines and disasters? Why does he let millions die? Surely if he can bring the dead back to life, and create all these heaven, he can provide food for the poor?
    No, we help ourselves.
    And you say that he 'lets that happen' I think hes a bit of a whack job!!!
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    (Original post by A Y A Z)
    Muslims say that we will die, and then become alive again!
    Does that even sound credible? Your telling us that there is a thing so powerful that he can raise us from the graves?
    Then why doesn't he/it/whatever stop all these famines and disasters? Why does he let millions die? Surely if he can bring the dead back to life, and create all these heaven, he can provide food for the poor?
    No, we help ourselves.
    And you say that he 'lets that happen' I think hes a bit of a whack job!!!
    I think you're a bit of a fool for being a judge and not showing mutual respect. God has the power to do all things, he also has the power to choose what he wants to do.

    *more on this later*
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    I think you're a bit of a fool for being a judge and not showing mutual respect. God has the power to do all things, he also has the power to choose what he wants to do.

    *more on this later*
    Well so do I. I have the power to do what I want; its called free will. Does that make me a god?
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    (Original post by mortderire)
    oooooooooohhhh
    you got merked by sister aliyah
    PLEASE REMOVE YOUR POST USAMA.
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    (Original post by A Y A Z)
    Well so do I. I have the power to do what I want; its called free will. Does that make me a god?
    No, simply because you don't possess Godly properties and are not divine. The highest you'd amount to in such a claim is a 'false messiah', a minor dajjal if you will.

    The reason being you're mortal, you can't show such miracles even if you could possess such magic and the natural disposition of your self is humanly, not divine :p: Also, you are not omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural and have no ability to prove your point. God does, and he has and hence our belief in him.
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    if you say god knows everything then why didnt he tell his mankind in the quran about gravity, he is the one that made this world as many of you lot have pointed out so he should be the first one to know about gravity, then why didnt he tell his mankind in the quran, why????
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    (Original post by hamza09)
    if you say god knows everything then why didnt he tell his mankind in the quran about gravity, he is the one that made this world as many of you lot have pointed out so he should be the first one to know about gravity, then why didnt he tell his mankind in the quran, why????
    why?...why?.....WHY?!!!

    :p:
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    There are some things man has to find out for himself. Let me remind you people that gravity and it's concept is a 'theory' e.g. The theory of gravity. There are still quantum instances and astrophysical instances where it breaks down.

    Also, the Qur'an and God gives man what he needs in order to capture such things, for example one God given difference between the human (homo sapien) and animals is the human's ability to process, assimilate and identify with concepts. I.e. the human thought conscience is a gift from God enabling him to figure out models like gravity to help in this modern world.
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    (Original post by Milli)
    why?...why?.....WHY?!!!

    :p:

    Please don't spam. It wastes my screen space. Now you've had to make me quote you to waste even more space.
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    There are some things man has to find out for himself. Let me remind you people that gravity and it's concept is a 'theory' e.g. The theory of gravity. There are still quantum instances and astrophysical instances where it breaks down.

    Also, the Qur'an and God gives man what he needs in order to capture such things, for example one God given difference between the human (homo sapien) and animals is the human's ability to process, assimilate and identify with concepts. I.e. the human thought conscience is a gift from God enabling him to figure out models like gravity to help in this modern world.
    first you say that the gravity is a just a theory then you say god enabled him to figure out models like gravity to help in the mordern world, so which one is it, please make your point clear, or are you just confused yourself which one it is.
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    Please don't spam. It wastes my screen space. Now you've had to make me quote you to waste even more space.
    Cheer up! It doesn't mean we have to be dead serious ALL the time. A little fun would be nice.

    Okay, okay...no spam. :hmmm:
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    (Original post by Milli)
    Cheer up! It doesn't mean we have to be dead serious ALL the time. A little fun would be nice.

    Okay, okay...no spam. :hmmm:
    Lol, see my long post... I wrote that reply for a reason. Cause and effect, an illustration. I'm a happy rocker thanks!
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    (Original post by hamza09)
    first you say that the gravity is a just a theory then you say god enabled him to figure out models like gravity to help in the mordern world, so which one is it, please make your point clear, or are you just confused yourself which one it is.
    Basically all of physics is a model. The theory of <insert basically any part of physics here>

    They are models used to represent modern day situations. They help to anticipate and accomodate future events through research. This doesn't mean they're completely correct. Things are liable to happen outside of what they predict.

    Gravity is much more than 'what goes up, must come down' Ever heard of things like the four fundamental forces and exchange bosons which mediate them?

    To quote my physics teacher: "All we know for certain, is that all of the science we know today is wrong"
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    Don't be stupid, gravity and basically all of physics is a model. The theory of <insert basically any part of physics here>

    They are models used to represent modern day situations. They help to anticipate and accomodate future events through research. This doesn't mean they're completely correct. Things are liable to happen outside of what they predict.

    Gravity is much more than 'what goes up, must come down' Ever heard of things like the four fundamental forces and exchange bosons which mediate them?

    To quote my physics teacher: "All we know for certain, is that all of the science we know today is wrong"
    what my physic teacher says is "all we know for certain, is that 99% of all science we know today is right"

    and second point about the comment of your physic teacher is that not all of the science we know is wrong or they would not be medecins, more people would be dying today. plus i think your physic teacher should not be a physic teacher he should be a rs teacher, what kind of advise does he give, if you put that on the exam paper you would get a big cross on the paper.
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    (Original post by Milli)
    CON

    Just about everything seems to have a beginning...as you stated in your post. The laws of science show that even things which look the same through our lifetime, like the sun and other stars, are running down. Each second, the sun is using up its fuel. So, therefore, it cannot last forever, it had to have a beginning. The same can be shown to be true for the entire universe.

    So when you claim that God created the entire universe, i'm going to ask the question.....where did God come from?

    If God created matter and enery, who or what accomplished that for God? If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?
    Allah (swt) is in our belief, omnipotent and omniscient. There was nothing before him, He has no predecessor or successor and he is absolute unto Himself.
    This belief and the belief in 'God' a supernatural 'deity' the Giver, Protector and Sustainer is a concept which, needless to say has been happening since time immemorial.

    I'll take the example of energy. Before there was energy and matter, what was there? Nothing. Therefore before 'God' we too believe there is nothing. Continuing with the energy analogy, energy mediates interaction between humans, matter and particles but where does energy come from? We believe that everything comes from God, He is the ultimate authority in mediating collisions and interaction between EVERYTHING. It's like tracing a computer pragram back to the source code. Before the 'source' there was nothing, it never existed*

    This is not to say God had a beginning or an end. For example, energy is degrading... With more and more passage and energy flow it's usability decreases. Does this mean it will one day cease to exist? No. Because then nothing would 'exist' so far as material existance is defined.

    So back to the beginning of energy, if we take the concept of The Big Bang, we say energy existed with matter and all of that... So what caused The Big Bang then and the universe then? It has to be some Divine, supernatural being which we call God.
    You may say i've contradicted myself when i said nothing existed before energy [the source] (*) but of course i was referring to 'worldly existance'
    The concept of God, is outside the reigns of space and time, as you've so succintly stated below. So therefore your very own statements are in essence partly helping to disprove what you say.

    Also, you may say i'm jumping to conclusions by saying God has created a perfect world but think about the crux of this world, the rain and rivers. The land, fertile soil and the animals. Ever heard of the circle of life? The natural disposition of things? Yes, all God's divine and inspirational works. There is, to my knowledge, no way such chaos can lead to such dormancy (on the whim of a probability) without divine intervention. This is the divine working of the world.

    Also as Ayaz said, there's alot of tragedy in the world; death, desolation and suffering.

    Now, this brings us to a concept we like to call 'cause and effect'. I believe that most of the tragedy of this world is due man's own reckoning. E.g. Let's take the Tsunami incident (SE Asia 9.0 2004)
    Everyone says God is ever-loving and merciful but He knows when to show his wrath also. If you look at the coastal areas of Sri Lanka and Indonesia that were affected, there was alot of immorality and crimes takign place. Sex slave trade, kidnapping and illicit young boys and girls being sold/ forced to do heinous acts. This is when God would cause 'natural disasters' to ultimately rid/ cleanse the world of evil. This could also be seen by some of the early events of Lut, Abu Bakr and his talk with the people of Madinah regarding the earthquakes there. God loves Madinah! It is the city in which our beloved Nabi (SAW) found death and a place which is regarded by many muslims as the 2nd Holiest place on God's green earth. Why would he invoke tragedy in such a place? Purging of sin.

    So, this brings us to the good people whose lives were taken in such natural disasters as the tsunami. In this case we look to the fact that God is the ultimate judge. He appeals to more than the human logic and so in His decisions we trust and put our faith. He is merciful unto his slaves and i believe it is his decision to claim those lives he gave and believe they will get what they deserve. For example, in Sri Lanka there was a prison which was flooded by water from the tsunami. People were possibly chained and manacled to the ground while water flooded there cells. What chaos would they be facing? What inner struggle... But for what purpose? Possibly if they sincerely repented they would now be swimming in the waters of paradise. There is something better possibly. If they lived then they may have had to endure the torment of prison longer.
    What about those members whom lost family members who they were dependant on? Now they possibly have learnt to deal with their grief and grown stronger from experience. And to those whom haven't, our sincerest sympathies and help be with them.
    God acts for such purpose, He in all his divine wisdom understand more what is good for a human than he know himself, hence he sends his tests to improve our world and ourselves.

    Take death for example... Yesterday my grandfather's sister died. She was suffering from cancer and eventually passed away yesterday. Yesterday morning when i conveyed condolences to my grandfather, he said: No, it was merciful. It was, she was suffering from cancer, kidney failure, vomiting blood and other symptomes. Now we pray that God in his infinate mercy has accepted her. Indeed there is probably something better for many good deeds in a lifetime than the abovementioned symptoms she was suffering from.

    Now, after the above illustration let me bring you back to the point of man doing injustice by his own hands. During the tsunami time, people helped with the tsunami relief and putting together funds.
    Do you people know that it was reported that 85 million (Yes, you rad correctly that's 85,000,000) rupees were taken from the tsunami money by Mahinda Rajapakse? Who is he... For most of you that don't know, he's the president of Sri Lanka.

    This is an insight into the human psyche, we have flaws (to serve a purpose... No fun if everyone was perfect as no concepts of improvement would exist) and man is power hungry and greedy. These are common traits.

    So, tyeing into the concept of man and his dastardlyness and hence him being the cause of bad things, there has to be a different kind of man. A different causality which invokes a different effect on society.
    Indeed, then there are those who are absolved of such malignant traits. Those who are righteous and pious and moral.

    Let us take a look at what happens when those people are in power. Take for example Muhammed (SAW), he was so righteous and merciful that people willingly submitted to his words and followed his command. In the city of Madinah, people were obediant because they had a love for him and his nature (Why do rebellions/ overthrows happen? Due to the people being unsatisfied with their leader)

    Let's take an example, one to do with alcohol. Back in the 1920's i'm sure you people know that the USA tried to banish and disallow alcohol. This was the high and mighty United States of America, they tried... But they couldn't. It didn't work. Bootlegging and illegal imports of alcohol became numerous and it eventually lead to the re-instatement of alcohol being legal.

    Compare and contrast this to Madinah during the time of the Prophet (SAW).
    When the verse about the total prohibition of the ingestion of Khamr (alcohol) came and was announced they said that Sahabah (companions of the prophet) immediately spat out the wine that was in their mouths, those who were serving it threw it away and some even went to the extent of forcing themselves to vomit.
    Why? A difference in thinking, a difference in mindset. Respect for their laws and rules.

    [And before you go and find a popularity statistic for how well liked the US president was at the time, let me say that actions are louder than statistics. Also, this is unfortunately a main cause of the current Islamophobia ravaging the world]

    Let us now consider another just personality from within the fold of Islam. Sayiddina Esa (AS) Ibn Mariyam (Jesus, the son of Mary).

    Hadith (both Bukhari and Muslim): Rasoolullah (SAW) says: The time is approaching when Esa, the son of Marriaym, will descend among you, and will be among you. He will break the cross, and kill the pig, and refuse to accept Jizyah and wealth will be so abundant that nobody will accept it (...)

    In the modern world, money and wealth of a country i.e. it's economy and infrastructure is somewhat of a measure of the countries goodness. In which case according to this Hadith, under the time of Jesus (AS) the country will prosper. This is, as expected. Under a good leader, the country will prosper.

    If you'd like a secular example, see Nelson Mandela (Republic of South Africa) and Muhammed Mathir (Malaysia)

    So, as i've now shown it is generally the shortcomings of humans and their psyche which is the cause of many of the inherent problems. Man's sexual desires and whims leading to entire pornographic empires, his constant capitalistic desires leading to low labour workforce pay/ conditions and increased poverty in some areas and his disregard for the environment causing global warming and many environmental problems.

    To quote Megadeth (a band :bang:) they have a line which sums up what I've said above fairly well, it goes:
    "I reveal; a deceiver,
    In the highest seat in the land,
    His idle hands; the devils workshop,
    Generate more smoke than heat (...)"

    Milli: I said what i said about your post (my 'spam' reply) hoping you'd continue it so i could expoit it as another example of cause and effect. No offence was meant

    The Quran makes clear that God is outside of time. He is eternal and has no beginning or end. He is infinite.

    'He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.'

    Is this logical? How can we recognise the evidence for an intelligence creator?
    The last phrase of that line is also tantamount of a reason why A Y A Z can't be God

    I'm going to nitpick and disect your use of the word 'logical'. Logic as a concept is very much vague and subjective to the person arguing it.
    Logic, to me, is also governed by the mindset or thinking of the time**

    To quote NathanL:
    Oh dear.

    This thread is ridiculous.

    Yawn is right, do a search for forums.

    I really don't see what you thought to gain from this - people making mindless comments about what religion "is" and "isn't" - in their infinite wisdom, pontificating from their thrones, they proclaim boldly (and, of course, somewhat arrogantly) that religion is 'evil' and is the 'root of all evil'.

    They think things are black and white, and they know the truth - of course, how could we religious types be so stupid (and oppressive, and deluded, and hypocritical, and...)?! I guess faith and religion really is the source of all our problems.

    Oh, and along the way to this revelation of reason and logic, one may have to ignore the millennia of religious history, theology, philosophy, practice, and culture which doesn't fit 'neatly' into their little box. One may also have to 'pass over' the fact that religion simply doesn't fit into categories, and has indeed inspired deeds of mighty virtue as well as heinous evil.

    "Could it be", the niggling voice says in the back of their brains, "that religion may be incredibly complicated and actually speak to the human condition at a far deeper level than my barely experienced views of politics and life and philosophy?"

    "Could this be", it continues, "why religion can inspire both acts of madness and a vast number of acts both positive and profoundly ethical?"

    Don't worry, forum cloggers.

    Ignore that voice.

    Carry on blind to the fact that your black and white polemics bear a striking resemblance to the dogmatism you so desperately want to 'destroy' (oh ho, those Jet Li movies really get into the ol' vocab, huh?), and blind to the notion that if you display searing arrogance and vitriol in your intentions to rid us of this 'curse' you will not convince anyone that your 'secular' alternative is any better!

    I guess all of this can be summed up in three words -

    Search and Grow.

    Search the forums (and save us these bloomin threads), and grow a little before you make such grandiose critiques you are positively and absolutely unqualified to produce.

    This applies to us all, but especially to those who create such threads.

    And of course - no offence.

    Nathan
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...6&postcount=26

    As he says in his emboldened paragraph, religion is deeper than knowledge and offers so much for the human psyche that it is certainly not a black and white issue of: Is it logical?.

    Let's come to that shall we, is logic the only way to the truth? Is it the ultimate authority to believe in something? Many will answer yes to the second question. If so, read the above quoted post and i very much agree that most theists (be they monotheists or polytheists alike) will have their reasons for why they are religious/ believe in God. To them, it is logical. To others, it is not.

    Let's explore this shall we, referring back to the line i marked (**) If we consider the early days, people reffered to the world as flat. To them, it was perfectly logical... A few centuries later and bang, the world is them 'geoshperical'*** Which is, needless to say very different to 'flat' So, logic can change over time as more and more becomes exposed.

    Regarding your next point about an intelligent God (The word intelligent will also be scrutinized later), coming to the line marked (***) holds an important point. Subhana'Allah, did you know that the Qur'an acknowledges it? The Geoshperical nature of the world?

    (Original post by Dr Zakir Naik)
    The Holy Qur'an further says in Surah Naziat, Ch. No. 79, Verse No. 30…. It says. (Arabic)… ‘And thereafter, We have made the earth egg-shaped’. The Arabic word ‘Dahaha’ comes from root word ‘Duhya’, meaning an Egg-shape and it does not refer to any normal Egg. It specifically refers to the Egg of an Ostrich - and today we know that the world is not completely round like a ball- It is Geo Spherical. It is slightly flattened from the top and bulging from the centre - It is Geo Spherical. And if you analyze the shape of the Egg of an Ostrich - it too is Geo Spherical, slightly flattened from the top and bulging from the centre. So the Holy Qur'an describes the exact ‘geo spherical earth’ 1400 years ago.
    Extract from "Qur'an and Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation" by Dr Zakir Naik, found under the 'download area' on www.irf.net

    Now for the further scrutiny of the word 'intelligent'. Let's use a metaphor. Say you tell someone a secret or a way of life or any piece of knowledge. This is imparting some form of intelligence, yes? They then want to impart it onto someone else. When they come to you and lay down an entire speech and lecture you on what they know, then you'll think... Whoa! He/She is smart! They have this knowledge!

    Now take another hypothetical scenario, suppose the information is an overload and can lambaste some of humankind with it's exposal. Such as a concept as mighty and complex, intricate and divine as God and his creations. Something some of the humans do not fully understand/ comprehend. So, should God tell us all his knowledge and expose himself in full? Should he tell someone that they are going to Hell and will burn in eternal damnation for the rest of time? No.

    So, how do we judge intelligence then? Is it... Knowing something only? Is it, knowing something and being able to communicate that knowledge? Is it, knowing how to deal with something and how to impart that knowledge?
    Intelligence in itself is a diverse and multi-faceted word.

    As we've shown above, God has the knowledge of everything (see **) and he also knows when and how to expose it to humankind. He also chooses a way in which to expose it so that it is a test and a challenge to his believer. I used the word believer as it is simply that, a belief. There are many 'proofs' of God, which many (as do i) accept but science so far has not proved it universally so it is a belief, which is plausible to some. And not plausible to others, i believe God has his own divine reasons as to why this exists in such a scenario.

    Peace and Blessings of God (with His will) be upon all our muslim brothers and sisters
    TGM :bban:
 
 
 
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