Why are you assumed to be bitter if you don't like chivalry?

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Ripper-Roo
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Women haven't asked for men to do things like hold door open for them, lend them their coat if they're cold, change their behaviour in the presence of a woman to be politer. Why is it assumed that this is what woman want? You're treating her like she's delicate and in need of protection. Instead it is better to treat her like she's a person, if she doesn't bring her coat, tell her to piss off if she wants yours. Why should you go without your own coat?

When people bring up that they think chivalry is outdated or patronising, people who support it say, they're bitter or "eww, butch, ugly, fat lesbians who will never attract men". Nobody's jealous if a man isn't chivalrous to them, they think the behaviour is pathetic, and in some occasions, it looks forced.
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The Angry Stoic
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Cud you want to have sex with her.
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danny111
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I have given a friend a jacket before because he was freezing his socks off and I was fine. Similarly I have not given it to girls when I myself was cold. So I agree with you.

But you don't have to be a **** about it and tell them to piss off. They can ask. You can say no. Why be a ****, as well?
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by danny111)
But you don't have to be a **** about it and tell them to piss off. They can ask. You can say no. Why be a ****, as well?
It's not to be taken seriously, it would have been said under humorous circumstances
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Swanbow
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Just another way to subtly shame those who don't conform to societal norms.
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Eva.Gregoria
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Brace yourselves people! The misogynists are coming!

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Viva Emptiness
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A lot of the people who get called "bitter" are probably also the people who go "Why should I give her my coat, I'm the one that works all day/brings home the money/does all the work/is smarter etc." which generally just makes them SOUND bitter as a whole.

I agree though, a girl has no more right to your jacket than anyone else :dontknow: but social expectations/norms are hard to break, and I guess we are still learning how to break out of them without sounding like bell ends. Some with more success than others.
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by The Angry Stoic)
Cud you want to have sex with her.
That's the problem, but not all women want someone who bends over backwards to please them, and it seems calculating and manipulative to say "if I do X for this girl, she's gonna fall for me". It also suggests that she isn't bright enough to see this plan.
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
A lot of the people who get called "bitter" are probably also the people who go "Why should I give her my coat, I'm the one that works all day/brings home the money/does all the work/is smarter etc." which generally just makes them SOUND bitter as a whole.

I agree though, a girl has no more right to your jacket than anyone else :dontknow: but social expectations/norms are hard to break, and I guess we are still learning how to break out of them without sounding like bell ends. Some with more success than others.
My main issue with someone thinking men should give up their coat to a woman is that he is bending over backwards to please her, when she could have brought her own. If he lends her it once, how many more times is she going to ask for things and possibly take advantage of his 'kind nature'? Also because she's a woman she deserves it is an annoying attitude.

It also applies to other things like being expected to give up money for other people, when if people looked after themselves more instead of expecting generosity, others wouldn't need to give up their money/belongings for their irresponsibility.
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danny111
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
That's the problem, but not all women want someone who bends over backwards to please them, and it seems calculating and manipulative to say "if I do X for this girl, she's gonna fall for me". It also suggests that she isn't bright enough to see this plan.
Not really. Maybe she sees it, and likes it.

I never saw the problem in this. If you think being a bad ass, and a **** to women will get you laid, fine. And it will. But likewise I am sure that some girls find men who do a lot for them equally attractive and men can get laid that way. Obviously some will take advantage of the latter type of men and some will find the former repulsive. But so what, you can't please everyone anyway.
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by danny111)
Not really. Maybe she sees it, and likes it.

I never saw the problem in this. If you think being a bad ass, and a **** to women will get you laid, fine. And it will. But likewise I am sure that some girls find men who do a lot for them equally attractive and men can get laid that way. Obviously some will take advantage of the latter type of men and some will find the former repulsive. But so what, you can't please everyone anyway.
How has anything I've said in this thread equaled "bad ass"? All I've said is it's better to treat someone as a human being, not part of a gender. If girls like stuff being done for them and the man doesn't mind, then fair enough. I just don't like the expectations that you need to behave a certain way towards the opposite sex.
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danny111
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
My main issue with someone thinking men should give up their coat to a woman is that he is bending over backwards to please her, when she could have brought her own. If he lends her it once, how many more times is she going to ask for things and possibly take advantage of his 'kind nature'? Also because she's a woman she deserves it is an annoying attitude.

It also applies to other things like being expected to give up money for other people, when if people looked after themselves more instead of expecting generosity, others wouldn't need to give up their money/belongings for their irresponsibility.
Again what's the problem? If you like doing that, do it. But if it comes to the point you do it simply for her and not yourself, i.e. she is taking advantage, that is the problem. And that is your own fault. You need to learn to say no for yourself.
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
My main issue with someone thinking men should give up their coat to a woman is that he is bending over backwards to please her, when she could have brought her own. If he lends her it once, how many more times is she going to ask for things and possibly take advantage of his 'kind nature'? Also because she's a woman she deserves it is an annoying attitude.

It also applies to other things like being expected to give up money for other people, when if people looked after themselves more instead of expecting generosity, others wouldn't need to give up their money/belongings for their irresponsibility.
It is extremely annoying if it's a one-sided arrangement - it makes me cringe to see nice guys being walked all over, and they could certainly use a little bit of your attitude.

On balance though, my OH does stuff like that for me all the time and I love it and more importantly I reciprocate as well.
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danny111
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
How has anything I've said in this thread equaled "bad ass"? All I've said is it's better to treat someone as a human being, not part of a gender. If girls like stuff being done for them and the man doesn't mind, then fair enough. I just don't like the expectations that you need to behave a certain way towards the opposite sex.
Nothing has. But it was for illustrative purposes, 2 ends of the spectrum here.
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by danny111)
Again what's the problem? If you like doing that, do it. But if it comes to the point you do it simply for her and not yourself, i.e. she is taking advantage, that is the problem. And that is your own fault. You need to learn to say no for yourself.
There shouldn't be any expectations though.
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The Angry Stoic
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
That's the problem, but not all women want someone who bends over backwards to please them, and it seems calculating and manipulative to say "if I do X for this girl, she's gonna fall for me". It also suggests that she isn't bright enough to see this plan.
You've got to insist. Show her you da boss.

And if she outright refuses your coat, through mud at her and push her down. This will assert your dominance.
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2ndClass
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Cynicism and an aversion to people doing nice things for you is pretty bitter tbh :dontknow:
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mimi112
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even without the chivalry a few practical issues remain: women are much less resistant to cold , have weaker bones, joints and ligaments and are much more likely to feel sick/faint if they haven't had a proper meal. if you give up your coat or your seat for a woman you're not just being chivalrous for the sake of it, there are biological reasons behind it as well . the only women i've heard being offended by it are feminazis, the vast majority of girls love being treated this way.
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danny111
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
There shouldn't be any expectations though.
Why?

I have certain expectations of girls...
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
A lot of the people who get called "bitter" are probably also the people who go "Why should I give her my coat, I'm the one that works all day/brings home the money/does all the work/is smarter etc." which generally just makes them SOUND bitter as a whole.
Yeah this is the problem. Have you noticed how these awkward social situations, such as being thought of as "bitter" always seem to happen to the same types of people on TSR! Usually the ones with a thread history of complaining about women, feminism or life in general.

I tend to err more on this 'gentleman' side eg if I go out somewhere with a female friend I usually offer to pay and I don't keep score or expect to be bought stuff in return, but if she says "no you're fine let me get mine" I let her pay her share and don't make a big thing of it. Some women will prefer to pay like that because they don't want to feel 'in your debt' so thats fine but it never creates any awkwardness unless you let it.

If I'm walking home with a girl and its cold or rainy then generally I'll offer her my coat as she's probably wearing less than me, if she's wearing a short dress and heels and is freezing to death then she's going to be more in need of the coat than me so it's no big sacrifice. I've never had a girl ask for my coat ever, if she's had it its because I've offered it.

There is nothing wrong with treating women kindly, it doesn't mean you're a doormat, I know when a girl is trying to take advantage and I won't fall for it but even then you don't have to go on a big defensive rant about gender equality you can just politely say no.

I think the problem for some of the guys on TSR is they lack general social skills and so they get negative reactions from women all the time. You can just tell the way some of these feminist-obsessed posters go on about things on here, that they are going to get disregarded by women but its not to do with feminism or societal prejudice, its because they are socially inept. They act like knobs and they don't listen when people call them out on it, they say you're a white knight if you're a guy or a feminazi if you're a girl, so they repeat their patterns of behaviour consistently, get frustrated by how they can't interact with women, and come and complain about it again on TSR. Meanwhile normal guys with social skills have no issues with their interactions with females.
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