East and South Asian Studies

I thought SOAS was by far and away the best place for this kind of thing, but the league tables say this:

1 Cambridge 497 100.0
2 Oxford 477 96.6
3 Nottingham 421 94.8
4 SOAS 327 93.1
5 Edinburgh 433 90.6
6 Leeds 363 87.2
7 Sheffield 359 85.0

Does anyone know how Oxbridge and Nottingham got to be ranked above SOAS? Are they actually better? How do they work out the scores for these things?

Reply 1

Master plan

I'm not sure about why they are ranked as they are, but SOAS offers more courses on East/South Asian studies than all the other universities in that table.
-Nottingham, from what I know, only offers chinese [mandarin] as a joint course.
-Both Oxford and Cambridge both offer single honours in Oriental Studies [I think this is comprised of Chinese or Japanese], without the possibility of combining them with any other course.
- SOAS offers most East/South Asian language and culture courses as single or combined courses. They have, by far, the largest selection of East & South Asian language courses available in the UK.
- Sheffield offers East Asian [Korean, Japanese, Chinese] single or combined courses, which can be combined but to a lesser extent than SOAS.
- Manchester offers Japanese language modules, but I'm not too sure if they even do it anymore; UCAS course search says that you can do Japanese as a combined course, but it isn't in the undergraduate prospectus anywhere.
- Birmingham offer Japanese or chinese, but I think it is only as a combined course.
- Leeds - same as Birmingham.
- Durham used to offer Japanese as a combined course but have shut down their East Asian department due to a lack of funding. It is still possible to take language modules as floaters, though, I think.
- Edinburgh also offer Japanese as a combined course, though from what I've read from graduates their Japanese department is small.

Now, in terms of the required grades needed, I think they rank as:
- Oxbridge - AAA/AAB
- Nottingham/Leeds/Birmingham - ABB
- SOAS/Sheffield - BBB [though Sheffield has increased to ABB for 2007 entry, and I'm sure SOAS will do the same]
- The rest

So really, I think they are ranked in order of the reputation of the university and the difficulty of getting in [this is just a hunch].

There are also other points to consider:
- Job prospects - the prospects of studying East Asian studies at Oxbridge is undoubtedly greater than studying at any of the other places. BUT, at the same time, it seems Sheffield and SOAS [with its high employment rate] also have good prospects in respect to working in East Asia. From people I've spoken to from that region, it seems that these two universities are thought of very well. I'm not sure about Nott, Birm or Leeds, though, as I haven't done much research into them so i can't comment on them with any degree of accuracy. But, doing something like Economics + Japanese at Birm or Leeds, which are ranked highly for economics, will certainly have excellent prospects, as will Engineering + Chinese at Nottingham.

- Course material - I can only speak for Japanese on this one. It seems that ALL of the universities above start at the same point [most use the same books and have the same material in the first year]. However, the course material seems to vary greatly between the universities after the first year; SOAS and Sheffield both have a great focus on history, Business, Economics, and Society, whereas Oxbridge place great emphasis on literature. I advise speaking to these departments and their respective universities before choosing a course, if you are really interested. Sheffield, AFAIK, is the only place offering East Asian studies as a single or combined honours, with the possibility of learning more than one language [but you'd have to check that with them].

- Year abroad - almost all of the universities mentioned include a year abroad in their East/South Asian courses. Oxbridge includes a compulsory one or two term stay [i forget], with an optional year abroad. Some combined courses will NOT have a year abroad, which can have a huge impact on your level of fluency after your course.

- What YOU want to do - granted, most people at this age don't know what they want to do, but some of us do. If you know that you want to work in East/South Asia when you are older, you may want to take the optional year abroad to make contacts, or choose a course more focused on the business aspect of things.

- the language you want to study - Japanese at SOAS may be better than Birmingham etc. Sheffield apparently has the largest centre for Korean studies in Europe. SOAS is the only place offering South Asian studies.

I would rank them as follows:
- Oxbridge
- SOAS [keep in mind, this is the only place offering South Asian courses]
- Sheffield
- Birmingham
- Leeds
- Manchester
[not sure where Edinburgh fits into this]

So, unless you are Oxbridge material, I would say that SOAS is the best place for East/South Asian studies.

Overall, I think all of the above factor into the table to some extent. Feel free to disagree with me, as this is only my personal opinion on the matter, or to correct me in areas I've gotten wrong. I only wish I had learned more about institutions offering the course when I was choosing my course, not after.

Reply 2

Champagne Breakfast

I'm applying to Oxford for PPE but I'm also interested in taking Economics & Chinese at SOAS. It's possible to do this in one UCAS round, but I can't really apply to Oxbridge for Chinese as well so that's why I was asking. The impression I get from everyone I've spoken to is that SOAS is the number one place to study Chinese in the country (probably in Europe.. along with Leiden) and that due to its faculty and resources it trumps Oxbridge. I also read somewhere that SOAS graduates expected to earn the highest starting salaries (!??!?!) and you telling me that they're well respected in the East (I'm looking to work in China/Hong Kong, probably in Shanghai) makes it sound even better.

Why would you rate Oxbridge above SOAS? Tutorial system, people, collegiate system or do you actually think their East Asian departments are better? Also do you know if there's any truth in SOAS graduates expecting the highest starting salaries? I would have thought it would be Oxbridge at the top of the list..

Do you know if employers like graduates with Chinese or is it nothing particularly special any more?

I also really like the look of the SOAS course, the Oxbridge ones seem a bit outdated. What do you think?

Thanks.

Reply 3

Piers-

As you know I'll be starting at SOAS in September, so my point of view is both biased and rather uninformed in comparison to somebody already reading Chinese at university. That said, here is my opinion anyway.

I think that Sutol is right that The Times merely graded it on entrance requirements.

The best overall Chinese degree in Europe is at Cambridge. They seem to do very well in the various "speaking competitions". I am, however, a little dubious as to what level of Chinese they allow people in with. (All Chinese degrees in England are ab initio.) After that it probably goes SOAS, Oxford and then perhaps Lieden. Oxford is, as far as I know, the most literature intensive, and thus if that is where your interests lie it will be at the top.

SOAS has the best and biggest Chinese-related library in Europe, I believe, but that is only really applicable at a postgraduate level.

In relation to SOAS graduates getting the highest salaries, I'm not sure how much truth is in that. If I remember correctly that study was how much graduates expect to be earning, and not what they actually are. Take that as you will. Many SOAS graduates go into the FCO, NGOs and even Mi6.

I'm still not entirely sure whether it's best to do Chinese with another discipline or not. I think it probably depends what you want to go in to. My only gripe with SOAS is that if I were to do Chinese with, say, economics, then 3 of my first year units would be in Chinese and only 1 would be in economics -- "introduction to economics", or something along those lines. Then I go for the year in China and promptly forget all of my introductory economics studies. It all seems a bit fragmented.

What I would much rather do is spend my first year at SOAS, and then subsequent year in Beijing, concentrating entirely on Chinese -- as is done with the single honours Chinese degree. And then after coming back from Beijing and embarking upon my 3rd year, I'd switch to a dual subject degree. This is possible but only for students with good grades and so on. Also, due to Chinese's intensiveness there are no "floater" units in the first year. You get one floater in the 3rd year and then another in the 4th.

And in regards to reputations, that's a tricky one, but here is what I can gather. Certainly, don't disregard the Oxbridge reputation. The playing field is very rapidly evening out in England, but this is not the case abroad and most significantly East Asia.

SOAS is better known internationally (especially in regards to the Orient) than it is in England. But as always SOAS remains a controversial institution and you'll find mixed feelings.

Reply 4

Master plan

I'd have to agree with what Piers; SOAS, in my opinion, would be the best place to study Chinese after Cambridge. You should contact the departments at SOAS and Cambridge and ask them more if you're interested.

Reply 5

Champagne Breakfast

What's a floater?

About the library thing, surely that is relevant at undergraduate too as you'll easily be able to get hold of as many books as you need/want?

Why do you say Cambridge is better overall? Do you mean your proficiency in the language will be better, or the whole package you get is just a more intensive course?

I'm not particularly interested in the traditional Chinese stuff to be completely honest, nor am I that interested in Chinese literature. SOAS (& Cambridge) seem a lot more flexible in this respect, and doing Economics & Chinese seems like the best way to avoid doing the bits you're not interested in. I'll have to research this a bit more though, I only took a quick look at the details. Your plan sounds good too, I'll look into it.

Also, in case I get in and decide to go, do you know what the best place to get accommodation is?

Reply 6

Piers-

At SOAS everyone does 4 units per year. If your subject only requires you to do 3, for example, then you can take a "floater" unit in another subject. Here is the SOAS syllabus (for single honours).

The library is of course very relevant at undergraduate too, but you'll need much more indepth and perhaps obscure books while doing postgraduate work.

Having not visited Cambridge my opinion on that is just hearsay. Actually there's someone reading Chinese at Cambridge who uses TSR, perhaps he'll be in more of a position to help you.

You must bear in mind that Cambridge only take about 10-15 students for Chinese per year. Each of them are exceptional and there's no "dead wood". With small classes and tutorials they get a very vigorous workout! SOAS, on the other hand, will have about 150 for Chinese this year. The students will range from exceptional to unmotivated and rubbish. I dare say the top 10-15 from SOAS would be comparable to those at Cambridge, but I don't know.

A lot of people I've spoken to have expressed a complete lack of interest in Chinese literature and so on. I have to say I'm quite the opposite and rather like the idea of studying something so noble, yet so utterly useless in day-to-day life :biggrin:

. I think if you do a joint degree the first thing to go, as you quite rightly said, is the classical stuff and they let you concentrate on modern language.

But note that there is a difference between "classical" and "traditional" Chinese. In fact I made a post about it earlier, so I'll copy-paste that:

--
Classical Chinese is basically ancient literary Chinese. It was used by the literati and administrators of the period, but was unintelligible to the masses. Mencius' and Confucius' works are written in classical Chinese, for example. I've heard that it's devilishly hard to learn!

SOAS students also study "simplified" characters, which were a creation of the Chinese Communist Party in a drive to improve national literacy (it worked). These are used in mainland China and Singapore, I believe.

And they learn "traditional" characters, which are what everyone used before the Communists' alterations. Places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau still use these.
--

In relation to your last question: I've no idea. I think the vast majority of prospective SOASers on TSR have opted for "Dinwiddy House", which is self-catered. But of course there are the University of London intercollegiate halls, too.

Hope this helps, and remember to take it with a pinch of salt.

Reply 7

Champagne Breakfast

^ Very helpful, thanks.

About traditional characters.. I thought you didn't need to learn those? Or do they make you do both?

Reply 8

Piers-

Yes, you have to learn traditional characters. An average native Chinese probably knows about 4000-6000 characters(ish), I think. But there is only actually about 2000 simplified characters. Thus, even if you wanted to learn the most modern "mainland Chinese" you would still end up learning traditional characters.

Edit: Actually, I am not too sure about about that last bit. I'll try and look it up.
-- OK, most sources seem to say there are "more than 2000 simplified characters", so that sounds about right. As for the last sentence, I haven't seen it written explicitly, but it makes logical sense.

Moreover, many simplified characters are very detached in appearance from their original meaning. By learning traditional characters it will actually aid you in learning the simplified script. They're much more beautiful, too!