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Have developed a misogynistic attitude through insecurities...help? watch

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    Hello, I am a regular poster here, however I would like to keep this anon because of the sensitive nature of the topic, and avoid any hurling of abuse. Not because I intend to offend, rather explain myself, although inevitably this will facilitate some angst among tsr.

    This thread revolves around my generic insecurities when it comes to the opposite sex (females) and the sense of hatred I feel towards societal attitudes and my experiences. I am a 23yr old male, I do in fact have a girlfriend, so this isn't a case of I have no experience with a woman, so I am not some naive woman-hater as such. I think from a very early age, I had low self-esteem and confidence, and my issues stemmed from the fact I found girls intimidating. Purely because I found myself unattractive to the opposite sex, I was never really 'one of the lads'. I never had much of the validation that loads of other blokes have had growing up (throughout secondary school/college, generically), whereby woman would fawn over men, or chatter about how good-looking they were.

    Now, I realise people will just be shouting out 'Jealous!', when in fact, I understand this is so. Of course I am and was jealous of all the boys/men that got this attention.

    Because from my perspective they got the attention and I didn't, and of course intrinsically this bothered me, thus I assumed there was something fundamentally wrong with me.

    Sure, I am actually disabled (seriously), and so this colored my view (and made me more bitter), as I thought that all the reasons that these men was attractive was due to all the reasons I wasn't.

    Over-time I saw that woman seemed to like the sort of macho/masculinity sort of image, muscles, facial hair, tallness, tanned complexion. All the things I was/am not. All of these features seemed far from what I was, and so I felt/feel that they are unattainable. Even if they were possible, I often thought, why bother changing myself to look attractive in the eyes of a women, why shouldn't I be loved just as I am??

    Then my mind plays over society, and the materialistic nature of the world, superficiality. Then I start to feel on a low ebb, as my confidence is generally rock bottom. But the fact that genetically I was bestowed with less than average genes, thus not particularly 'amazing'. I guess what I am saying is, I guess I am average, in the sense I just blend in. But there again, most average blokes have something about them, muscle, build, nice complexion or whatever, (something which marks their attractiveness), whereas I have nothing that is particularly appealing. Yeah sure I have a girlfriend, which to this day I have no idea why she is with me, because she even admitted to me that I was not really her type (she likes the sporty type/athletic), which I suppose is why I am a bit enraged about the whole, woman liking muscle, because I was never muscly, she claims she loves me. But has hinted I get in shape.

    I just feel like I want to get in shape, but by same token I feel in doing so I am turning into some 'womanizing' bodybuilding macho man sleaze. I am really really trying to not be contemptious and bitter, but its hard. I have spent a long time being hateful towards this sort of man, and by virtue of me potentially bulking up for my girlfriend makes me feel I am turning into one of these people.

    Also, with this, I seem to have this kind of subtle hatred towards woman for their wanting to/or being attracted to muscular/a**hole type men. I understand its a preference, but I just feel this image of muscular, confident/cocky, alpha, tanned/tall, nice eyes, blah blah, is so out of reach with whom I am.

    Like I cannot change my facial symmetry, my height (im 5.7ft), and yet people are sometimes selective about this. I feel its unfair, but I guess that's why I'm so bitter about the dating scene. At this point i'm not sure where my conversation was going, but can anyone shed some light on how I can get some form of help.

    I don't hate woman as a gender, but just the kind of cut-throat nature of selection. Yeah sure I can be the best I can be. But sometimes this isn't good enough, to some standards, I almost feel disgusted and down-trodden when a woman tells me I need to go to the gym, bulk-up etc. Why should I change who I am and turn into some complete a**hole and change my whole core?
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    Just for the record and for the mention:

    I am a baby-faced short guy (5.7'') and have a very wimpy build, a bit of a pot belly (too much beer), have little to no confidence, depression, and a general sense of bitterness and cynicism. Was always envious of more attractive guys (genetically so) because I have never seen myself as attractive, so perhaps my issue is more self-esteem than a proposed hatred. Also, I was bullied as a child by females during school, so maybe this is why I have a warped view of woman. Plus, I'm very much a non-confrontational/shy bloke, not very in your face, and I don't show off.
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    Well think, you're saying why should I do this and that but you're complaining when a woman says to herself "why should I get with this guy?". What a girl wants to see is not that you're doing all of these things to impress her, just that you're a guy that has his life under control.

    Saying that it is wrong for her to push you to do these things, if that's what she wants then she should have gone out and got it in the first place. I'm not saying you shouldn't be with her but take a step back and try to analyse the situation more.

    P.S: not all buff guys are jerks, that's an ignorant comment.
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    It seems odd someone would be consciously misogynistic. Do you not think men base attraction more on looks than women do? So surely a misanthropic attitude would be more logical?

    Are you honestly happy/secure with your girlfriend? I was unenthusiastic enough about working out, but getting with a girl who genuinely finds my skinny frame hot is enough to guarentee I can't be arsed.

    Not all buff guys are jerks, but is there a correlation between spending a ridiculous amount of time on your appearance and being self centred and boring? Yes.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)

    Not all buff guys are jerks, but is there a correlation between spending a ridiculous amount of time on your appearance and being self centred and boring? Yes.
    Only takes 3 hours a week, hardly ridiculous. Women spend more time than that when you factor in make-up and shopping etc.
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    (Original post by Jebedee)
    Well think, you're saying why should I do this and that but you're complaining when a woman says to herself "why should I get with this guy?". What a girl wants to see is not that you're doing all of these things to impress her, just that you're a guy that has his life under control.

    Saying that it is wrong for her to push you to do these things, if that's what she wants then she should have gone out and got it in the first place. I'm not saying you shouldn't be with her but take a step back and try to analyse the situation more.

    P.S: not all buff guys are jerks, that's an ignorant comment.
    Your quite right yes, if indeed that was what she wanted then presumably she would have walked away by now.

    Perhaps I'm giving out too much clout here, maybe she just wants me to be healthier, but I can't help but think that maybe she wants to make me into a more 'idealized' version of what she looks for in a man. Which of course makes me feel like I was uwanted in the first place.

    I suppose some of what I have written could indicate me being a hypocrite to some extent. But I just wanted somewhere in which I could get out my emotion. So apologies for sounding rude. Maybe because I have little confidence I want to impress, maybe I am looking for ways to boost my confidence (subconsciously) without boosting it. I.e. putting a woman on a pedestal (by doing what they want, getting the right physique, trying too much) hypothetically.

    Sorry my gibberish is incoherent here, and I agree and retract that statement. Guess I am just a little bitter.
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    You mentioned she is sporty. Sporty people usually go for other sporty people....did you always have a bit of a belly? If you've gained it during this relationship then it's understandable, many men and women would start to hint at losing it.

    Maybe she can sense your lack of confidence and as she is sporty, that's the best way she knows to help you with it. She's right, it is a great way to do it. You can't lose anything by giving it a go so give it a shot, maybe even go to the gym together.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    It seems odd someone would be consciously misogynistic. Do you not think men base attraction more on looks than women do? So surely a misanthropic attitude would be more logical?

    Are you honestly happy/secure with your girlfriend? I was unenthusiastic enough about working out, but getting with a girl who genuinely finds my skinny frame hot is enough to guarentee I can't be arsed.

    Not all buff guys are jerks, but is there a correlation between spending a ridiculous amount of time on your appearance and being self centred and boring? Yes.
    I think maybe I do it because I have low self esteem, and its easier to hate them to kind of deal with the issue. I know psychologically this isn't good, it just kind of masks the issue.

    I agree, logically and drawing from popular culture men place more emphasis on the way a woman looks. But I do feel woman are becoming more this way also.

    I'm happy in the sense that I love her, although perhaps not secure in a psychological sense, in the sense I am somewhat grated by her expectations and preferences. I guess its just human nature to an extent, I just feel a bit second-best, the fact she stated I'm not her usual type of man, although she told me she does love me. I still can't help but feel on some level rejected. In most people, this would maybe spur them on to work out and become this person that their spouse/gf/fiance wants. Or become close enough to what she sees in her eyes, however, to me, it kind of irritates and enrages me deeply, in a very passive-aggressive sense.

    Kind of validates and reinforces my warped negative views of the world that a majority of woman would like a man, whom ticks particular boxes and has universally accepted traits. (facial symmetry, rugged shapely jaw-line etc...etc...etc), such traits that I do not have or insofar as I have never been complimented on or made aware of. For instance, no girl has ever made remark toward my masculinity or given me some comment, that you might hear being said to such a man in the above-mentioned.

    Again, these are preferences, and it might 'be life' but it kind of wipes people out in the selection process and is unfair. It is funny in a sense, perhaps I haven't been living in the real world, and I am just an over the top optimist in some small sense (hoping that everyone is nice when they aren't).

    Yes, spending excess amount of time on ones appearance and working out (sometimes) in people can make them seem vain, boring or otherwise shallow and empty. No substance to their personalities, but it just seems this is a sort of personality-type woman like, or maybe its the vain woman that tend to like vain men (the logic in me!).
    Maybe I am thinking about the wrong woman here, perhaps I am attracted to such woman, in which case beggars can't be choosers! In my case...

    I feel like how you mentioned in your first statement. Expect I'm not skinny. I am the product of lots of alcohol consumption (unfortunately), so I have got out of shape. But in a sense, I don't wish to become so sort of macho-gym rat and conform what I've previously mentioned. I feel like if someone loves me they love me regardless.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Only takes 3 hours a week, hardly ridiculous. Women spend more time than that when you factor in make-up and shopping etc.
    Women who spend ages on make up are the equivalent of guys who spend ages in the gym... though to be fair, I have some really sound friends who are ripped. The real boring people are those that talk about it all the time. I know there are a range of subjects people are interested in, but other people's work out routines are never included in that.

    (Original post by Anonymous)

    I agree, logically and drawing from popular culture men place more emphasis on the way a woman looks. But I do feel woman are becoming more this way also.

    I'm happy in the sense that I love her, although perhaps not secure in a psychological sense, in the sense I am somewhat grated by her expectations and preferences. I guess its just human nature to an extent, I just feel a bit second-best, the fact she stated I'm not her usual type of man, although she told me she does love me. I still can't help but feel on some level rejected. In most people, this would maybe spur them on to work out and become this person that their spouse/gf/fiance wants. Or become close enough to what she sees in her eyes, however, to me, it kind of irritates and enrages me deeply, in a very passive-aggressive sense.

    Again, these are preferences, and it might 'be life' but it kind of wipes people out in the selection process and is unfair. It is funny in a sense, perhaps I haven't been living in the real world, and I am just an over the top optimist in some small sense (hoping that everyone is nice when they aren't).

    Yes, spending excess amount of time on ones appearance and working out (sometimes) in people can make them seem vain, boring or otherwise shallow and empty. No substance to their personalities, but it just seems this is a sort of personality-type woman like, or maybe its the vain woman that tend to like vain men (the logic in me!).
    Maybe I am thinking about the wrong woman here, perhaps I am attracted to such woman, in which case beggars can't be choosers! In my case...

    I feel like how you mentioned in your first statement. Expect I'm not skinny. I am the product of lots of alcohol consumption (unfortunately), so I have got out of shape. But in a sense, I don't wish to become so sort of macho-gym rat and conform what I've previously mentioned. I feel like if someone loves me they love me regardless.
    I think woman are too, but for positive reasons- they have more choice, and don't have to rely on men for income as much.

    Isn't it ironic you are complaining about women being shallow, yet this girl likes you because she isn't shallow about her preferred look, and you have a problem with that?

    But you haven't been wiped out the selection process, you have a girlfriend!
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    Why do people keep talking about excesses? She made a slight hint at losing a bit of podge. Surely you can manage a bit of exercise without falling down that slippery slope and coming out as Arnie zeus-douchebag. If she's really pretty then there's no reason why it isn't a fair ask.

    If you want the best you've got to be the best.
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    Stop being bitter, you have a girlfriend. That is the end/
    Many, many people are single and alone. This thinking makes you risk sidelining, or not appreciating your girlfriend.
    If you let go of the past you will be a much happier person.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Why do people keep talking about excesses? She made a slight hint at losing a bit of podge. Surely you can manage a bit of exercise without falling down that slippery slope and coming out as Arnie zeus-douchebag. If she's really pretty then there's no reason why it isn't a fair ask.

    If you want the best you've got to be the best.
    Don't necessarily agree with you there, don't see why I have to be the best to have it. Of course, it would be wrong to expect the best without holding some standard, however, in context, presumably, if someone likes you they like you for the non-shallow reasons (I.e. not superficial, vain or on the surface). What I am hinting at is maybe that, as people, not just for woman (as my thread was initially aimed at, although in my situation it is so), maybe we should all try to go for a lover, or potential mate based on the qualities that matter. Those that matter in the longer term (personality, wit, intellect etc). I just feel that it does some level of injustice to those that are less than desirable on a visual level.

    After all, is it really their fault?? (Genetics etc.) Its very akin to the argument of the wealthy and the poor. There are poor people in our world, yet the majority look down on poverty, yet is it their fault!?? I feel as a society we are kind of selfish and have become focused on materialism and have the drop dead gorgeous partner, the money, that flash car. I am guilty of this too, I am a hypocrite to some extent.

    But back to the argument, I just don't feel that I should have to change for anyone, sure a bit of exercise is manageable, but I'm not changing my entirety for a woman. Isn't the whole idea that, we will all find someone for whom loves us as we are. Accepting our flaws and defects? Yet what is put in front of us, is members of the opposite sex judging you on a somewhat superficial level. It just doesn't add up.

    My main grudge is that, I have some sort of complex about my looks (yes, on a superficial level), but I blame this on our focused society on superficiality. Unfortunately, it would be obvious to assume society favors those more attractive over those that aren't, leaving those that aren't with some form of mental challenge or anxiety/low confidence driven constraint. I am one of those persons. I just posted here to kind of ask what I could do to solve the issue.
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    (Original post by Capn cas)
    Stop being bitter, you have a girlfriend. That is the end/
    Many, many people are single and alone. This thinking makes you risk sidelining, or not appreciating your girlfriend.
    If you let go of the past you will be a much happier person.
    Certainly agree with you that I should stop being bitter, though, easier said than done with the way of our world.

    Perhaps I am taking what I have for granted, I just wish that I was of a more desirable person (visually), but I guess we all do. I think at the time of posting I was having another low episode, and often wonder why it is so that it is fair people are born with better qualities (not just limited to looks, but wealth also), but I sometimes just sit and stare and wonder 'just why'. Maybe this does me no favours, with it ending in some vicious depressive cycle. That's the nature of mental health/low self esteem.

    I have always tended to compare myself to what others had, and what I didn't, perhaps this is a life lesson for me, and that i need to focus on the things I have and the things I can achieve within my own boundaries. Yes, 100%, I often seem to live in the past, but guess its time to live for the here and now. Your post has been an insight to me, thanks.
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    (Original post by sufferin succotash)
    Not reading it


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    Pretty pointless comment then sir, if you can't be asked to read.
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    Do you really feel that spending a couple of hours a week in the gym is going to change your entire personality? I think to expect the best without being it yourself is quite naive and arrogant really. Admittedly most people would describe me as somewhat arrogant but when it comes to this subject, I would never demand a quality in a woman that I do not myself hold.

    I think the whole "media pushing the standard of looks to unattainable levels" is a massive cop out really. Unless you have worked hard and reached your maximum capacity of aesthetics that your genetics will allow, you can't really use that excuse. It sounds like "unless I can have it ALL, I'm not even going to try".

    If you do have a complex about your looks then do something about the things you can change and don't worry about the things you can't. People will definitely respect the fact that you are making the BEST effort with what you have, regardless of what that is. It is the general attitude and mindset that people are looking at, the body, clothing and confidence are just things that come with it but unless you change that core mindset to that of a positive one you can't really expect good results.

    Obviously there are many qualities one can have which will make you attractive and most people don't have all of them. But you can have MOST of them and once you work on those things, the things you don't have will just fade into the background and be cast from your mind and consequently everyone else's mind.
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    Very long thread that is not structured properly. Please fix this.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Certainly agree with you that I should stop being bitter, though, easier said than done with the way of our world.

    Perhaps I am taking what I have for granted, I just wish that I was of a more desirable person (visually), but I guess we all do. I think at the time of posting I was having another low episode, and often wonder why it is so that it is fair people are born with better qualities (not just limited to looks, but wealth also), but I sometimes just sit and stare and wonder 'just why'. Maybe this does me no favours, with it ending in some vicious depressive cycle. That's the nature of mental health/low self esteem.

    I have always tended to compare myself to what others had, and what I didn't, perhaps this is a life lesson for me, and that i need to focus on the things I have and the things I can achieve within my own boundaries. Yes, 100%, I often seem to live in the past, but guess its time to live for the here and now. Your post has been an insight to me, thanks.
    I'm sure I really get this, why would the way of the world make you bitter? Surely you should think "hey, I'm a young guy, presumably with reasonable prospects in life in a stable and wealthy country, lucky I'm not in Syria or Afghanistan or Somalia, etc!".
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Do you really feel that spending a couple of hours a week in the gym is going to change your entire personality? I think to expect the best without being it yourself is quite naive and arrogant really. Admittedly most people would describe me as somewhat arrogant but when it comes to this subject, I would never demand a quality in a woman that I do not myself hold.

    I think the whole "media pushing the standard of looks to unattainable levels" is a massive cop out really. Unless you have worked hard and reached your maximum capacity of aesthetics that your genetics will allow, you can't really use that excuse. It sounds like "unless I can have it ALL, I'm not even going to try".

    If you do have a complex about your looks then do something about the things you can change and don't worry about the things you can't. People will definitely respect the fact that you are making the BEST effort with what you have, regardless of what that is. It is the general attitude and mindset that people are looking at, the body, clothing and confidence are just things that come with it but unless you change that core mindset to that of a positive one you can't really expect good results.

    Obviously there are many qualities one can have which will make you attractive and most people don't have all of them. But you can have MOST of them and once you work on those things, the things you don't have will just fade into the background and be cast from your mind and consequently everyone else's mind.
    No I don't think it would change personality all in all. However, generally speaking, if someone whom is initially small framed and lacks confidence goes to the gym and puts on muscle, tones up, generally, there is an improvement of confidence, and with this the potential to be a complete a**hole, hence my reasoning that some people can actually change temperament (for the worst), so yes it is possible. Perhaps I am generalizing too much.

    Maybe there are arrogant aspects about it. But I explain in one of my responses that, it would be wrong of me to assume this unless I held a particular/or similar standard myself. Although I suppose everyone wants the best. I know, myself, I am usually drawn to very attractive girls (almost out of my league attractive), and perhaps I am being unrealistic?

    With this, I would just like to ask...do you think that it is unrealistic for a man to go for a lady that is very attractive (more so than himself)? Does the majority believe in leagues?
    There is something about 'leagues' that screams high-school 'immaturity', but maybe it does exist in the modern dating world.

    I do believe to an extent that some features are 'unattainable' with relation to your mentioning of "the media", i.e. our genetics define how we look. We cannot really change this, (well we can if we are rich and can afford plastic surgery), but we can use skin treatment and other means to change that on a basic level.

    I appreciate that I may seem very arrogant. But in fact, I am someone who in reality is very sensitive, insecure and somewhat lacking in confidence. It just seems to blur in writing. I actually do have a massive complex about my looks (perhaps I am average in appearance, but always wanted to look better). But with this 'want' to look better, I do not believe that everything is possible, outside of buying the right clothes, and styling the hair.

    Yes I could go to the gym and bulk up and tone my muscles, but I just feel that if I was to spend my time in a gym, and I was still unsuccessful I would feel very empty. I feel like if I went to a gym, in this instance, it would be to attract a potential mate, and not for me. If you see where I am going. So therefore, I would be more empty, upset and disappointed, if I was not to attract a mate, even though I should not expect it to happen, most people do expect to find a mate (if their body is toned and they made the effort).


    May sound selfish and all out for me, but lets face it, we are all out to improve ourselves in some sense, albeit, vocationally, academically, romantically, and intimately.


    So to conclude, perhaps we cannot "have them all", because as you said yourself, "...there are many qualities one can have which will make you attractive and most people don't have all of them...", yet you do also give a contradictory statement (not to sound horrible), when you say "...but you can have MOST of them...", seems a little skewed here.

    I just think that in some instances, this effort, in improving oneself is not worth it, because if one falls flat on their face, it seems like a setup for heartbreak, failure and a waste of time.

    Perhaps the real issue is low self esteem (in men and woman alike)?
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    Sorry I accidentally posted as anonymous, it was me.

    "No I don't think it would change personality all in all. However, generally speaking, if someone whom is initially small framed and lacks confidence goes to the gym and puts on muscle, tones up, generally, there is an improvement of confidence, and with this the potential to be a complete a**hole, hence my reasoning that some people can actually change temperament (for the worst), so yes it is possible. Perhaps I am generalizing too much."

    I really have to disagree with you there, maybe you've had some run ins with jocks or watched too many American movies. Being confident doesn't make you arrogant, being arrogant makes you arrogant.

    "Maybe there are arrogant aspects about it. But I explain in one of my responses that, it would be wrong of me to assume this unless I held a particular/or similar standard myself. Although I suppose everyone wants the best. I know, myself, I am usually drawn to very attractive girls (almost out of my league attractive), and perhaps I am being unrealistic?"

    Yeah like I said, if you want the spoils you have to win the war. In an ideal world we'd get everything we want with no effort but that's not how it works. Do not think that way because it won't serve you well.

    "With this, I would just like to ask...do you think that it is unrealistic for a man to go for a lady that is very attractive (more so than himself)? Does the majority believe in leagues?
    There is something about 'leagues' that screams high-school 'immaturity', but maybe it does exist in the modern dating world."

    It's more of a sub-concious awareness more than something voiced. Yeah it does happen that an unattractive guy gets a hot girl. For example I know an insanely hot girl, size 6 waist with a D cup. Very pretty face. Her bf has never seen a gym, he's a nice guy but nothing really stands out. They're together because they dated from early teens and their families became friends so she dares not to leave him and is kinda resigned to her fate while silently lusting after other guys. Would you really want to be this guy? Or would you rather have her because she wants you?

    "I appreciate that I may seem very arrogant. But in fact, I am someone who in reality is very sensitive, insecure and somewhat lacking in confidence. It just seems to blur in writing. I actually do have a massive complex about my looks (perhaps I am average in appearance, but always wanted to look better). But with this 'want' to look better, I do not believe that everything is possible, outside of buying the right clothes, and styling the hair."

    If you want something, go and get it. When you're old you're going to have to reconcile with your choices you made. Believe me, nothing is worse than regret. If you gave it a shot and failed that is a million times better than not trying at all.


    "Yes I could go to the gym and bulk up and tone my muscles, but I just feel that if I was to spend my time in a gym, and I was still unsuccessful I would feel very empty. I feel like if I went to a gym, in this instance, it would be to attract a potential mate, and not for me. If you see where I am going. So therefore, I would be more empty, upset and disappointed, if I was not to attract a mate, even though I should not expect it to happen, most people do expect to find a mate (if their body is toned and they made the effort)."

    That's the wonderful thing about the gym is that it can't not work. If you turn up, do the work, eat right. You'll get buff. The only way it can fail is if you don't turn up or don't do sufficient research (which in the information age there's no excuse for).


    "So to conclude, perhaps we cannot "have them all", because as you said yourself, "...there are many qualities one can have which will make you attractive and most people don't have all of them...", yet you do also give a contradictory statement (not to sound horrible), when you say "...but you can have MOST of them...", seems a little skewed here." What I mean is if you don't have the face. You can have the body, the intelligence, confidence, career. It's all there but you have to go and get it. I would link you to the Alec Baldwin speech in Glengarry Glen Ross but I'm on my phone.

    "I just think that in some instances, this effort, in improving oneself is not worth it, because if one falls flat on their face, it seems like a setup for heartbreak, failure and a waste of time."

    Self improvement is a marathon, not a sprint. When you fall off the horse you just get straight back on.


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