EU Referendum Bill Dead.

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Joeman560
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ords-vote.html

What a grotesque abuse of power.

Hague is still promising one though
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456...promises-Hague

Whether you're a Europhile or a Eurosceptic, I'd like to see someone attempt to justify this show of contempt for democracy.
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Solivagant
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I wouldn't say I am a Europhile, but it is my personal belief that we would be better off staying in the EU.

It is wrong if we don't get a referendum on the matter though, the public really ought to have a say in the matter.
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Rakas21
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It's not technically dead yet but i can't say i'm bothered either way. The point at which i really think we need a referendum is when Europe has its own army and a fully federal parliament with supremacy (at that point we either integrate fully or leave). As things stand now i believe the 'In' campaign will win but i don't see any need for them to give into pressure from Ukip. In addition when the referendum finally comes it should be swift and decisive rather than long and drawn out.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Joeman560)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ords-vote.html

What a grotesque abuse of power.

Hague is still promising one though
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456...promises-Hague

Whether you're a Europhile or a Eurosceptic, I'd like to see someone attempt to justify this show of contempt for democracy.
I don't really care for democracy, so i'm not bothered if there is not a referendum.

Also, the first link doesn't work (the Telegraph are demanding subscription for every UKIP/EU article now, it seems).
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democracyforum
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I don't really care for democracy, so i'm not bothered if there is not a referendum.

Also, the first link doesn't work (the Telegraph are demanding subscription for every UKIP/EU article now, it seems).
You can bypass the subscription pay page

mozilla :
right click anywhere on the page , telegraph.co.uk
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chrisawhitmore
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(Original post by Rakas21)
It's not technically dead yet but i can't say i'm bothered either way. The point at which i really think we need a referendum is when Europe has its own army and a fully federal parliament with supremacy (at that point we either integrate fully or leave). As things stand now i believe the 'In' campaign will win but i don't see any need for them to give into pressure from Ukip. In addition when the referendum finally comes it should be swift and decisive rather than long and drawn out.
Well, at the moment we've got a rubber stamp parliament and a supreme court which is both corrupt and unnacountable to the people. I'd say that's worse than a legitimate parliament.


Also, I thought that the correct method for holding a referendum is to hold as many as it takes to get the decision you want, not to have a single decisive vote and then respect the wishes of the people.
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RF_PineMarten
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(Original post by Rakas21)
It's not technically dead yet but i can't say i'm bothered either way. The point at which i really think we need a referendum is when Europe has its own army and a fully federal parliament with supremacy (at that point we either integrate fully or leave). As things stand now i believe the 'In' campaign will win but i don't see any need for them to give into pressure from Ukip. In addition when the referendum finally comes it should be swift and decisive rather than long and drawn out.
I think it would have to be fairly drawn out so both sides get a chance to put their side across properly. Do a referendum too quickly and people will vote based on whatever happens to be in the newspapers that week, not based on the bigger picture.

We need an EU referendum badly, the British public have never once been given a say as to whether we should be in the EU or not. It really has been forced down our throats.
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gladders
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How is this a 'grotesque abuse of power'? The Lords is entirely within its rights to amend any Bill it wishes and can block for a session if it desires. That's it's job. We've been grateful for it before in nixing stupid Commons ideas on the head in the past.

Criticise them for perhaps making the wrong decision (in your view), but don't try to dress it up as an abuse of power.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
Well, at the moment we've got a rubber stamp parliament and a supreme court which is both corrupt and unnacountable to the people. I'd say that's worse than a legitimate parliament.

Also, I thought that the correct method for holding a referendum is to hold as many as it takes to get the decision you want, not to have a single decisive vote and then respect the wishes of the people.
I agree. Is that different to a normal supreme court?

Ha. No, whatever the people decide is final. There'd be nothing worse than repetitive referendums on the same subject.

(Original post by RFowler)
I think it would have to be fairly drawn out so both sides get a chance to put their side across properly. Do a referendum too quickly and people will vote based on whatever happens to be in the newspapers that week, not based on the bigger picture.

We need an EU referendum badly, the British public have never once been given a say as to whether we should be in the EU or not. It really has been forced down our throats.
By quickly i mean more like a year, it's still plenty of time.

I'd rather have a referendum on Lords reform to be honest.
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cid
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I personally am quite pro Europe and want more integration with the continent and the EU, however this is wrong, how do we go about getting rid of this rather pointless house of lords?
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Quady
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(Original post by Joeman560)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ords-vote.html

What a grotesque abuse of power.

Hague is still promising one though
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456...promises-Hague

Whether you're a Europhile or a Eurosceptic, I'd like to see someone attempt to justify this show of contempt for democracy.
It was a private members bill.

They never get anywhere unless everyone thinks its a good idea.
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gladders
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(Original post by cid)
I personally am quite pro Europe and want more integration with the continent and the EU, however this is wrong, how do we go about getting rid of this rather pointless house of lords?
Clegg tried that two years ago and everybody rightly thought it was a terrible idea.
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Aj12
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I don't see how no referendum equals the UK is not democratic. I cannot stand the idea of referendums. We aren't a direct democracy, I really don't see the need for it on this issue.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by gladders)
Clegg tried that two years ago and everybody rightly thought it was a terrible idea.
Actually the bill passed its second reading with a massive majority. The reason it was withdrawn was the same reason this bill is failing, a time limiting amendment was defeated meaning that people could filibuster.
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gladders
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Actually the bill passed its second reading with a massive majority. The reason it was withdrawn was the same reason this bill is failing, a time limiting amendment was defeated meaning that people could filibuster.
They may have supported the principle but nobody could agree on the detail, and the specific proposal that Clegg made, when discussed in detail, was full of plot holes. The Joint Committee destroyed it.
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RF_PineMarten
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(Original post by Aj12)
I don't see how no referendum equals the UK is not democratic. I cannot stand the idea of referendums. We aren't a direct democracy, I really don't see the need for it on this issue.
Joining the EU was a decision which effectively handed away a great deal of our sovereignty to a foreign body. Such a major decision was never voted on though - no one in this whole country voted for the arrangement we have today. It is indeed undemocratic to deny the public a say in an important issue which affects just about everyone.
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Aj12
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(Original post by RFowler)
Joining the EU was a decision which effectively handed away a great deal of our sovereignty to a foreign body. Such a major decision was never voted on though - no one in this whole country voted for the arrangement we have today. It is indeed undemocratic to deny the public a say in an important issue which affects just about everyone.
So vote for a party that wants out of the EU or opposes more integration. The public is incredibly misinformed over the EU and it is a very complex issue, hardly one that should be left to a public vote. Most things a government does affects the entire country but no one asks for a public vote.
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Katie_p
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Good. It was a disgusting abuse of power to try to manipulate the future Government.
Much as I dislike it, Parliament is sovereign, thus this Bill could not legally have bound any future Parliament to hold a referendum, and I believe there are many politicians who took full advantage of this knowledge in supporting the Bill in the first place.
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gladders
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(Original post by RFowler)
Joining the EU was a decision which effectively handed away a great deal of our sovereignty to a foreign body. Such a major decision was never voted on though - no one in this whole country voted for the arrangement we have today. It is indeed undemocratic to deny the public a say in an important issue which affects just about everyone.
Ahem.
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chrisawhitmore
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I agree. Is that different to a normal supreme court?

Ha. No, whatever the people decide is final. There'd be nothing worse than repetitive referendums on the same subject.



By quickly i mean more like a year, it's still plenty of time.

I'd rather have a referendum on Lords reform to be honest.
On the first point, it differs from a normal supreme court in that a normal supreme court may be overruled in effect by parliament, by the means of their proposing and passing a bill which alters the law ruled upon (eg. if the UK supreme court ruled that it was illegal not to give UK supreme court judges a pay rise, the parliament could change the law, though of course the UK supreme court is not corrupt enough to allow people to be judges in their own cause, unlike some courts I could name) The EU parliament couldn't propose the legislation, which means that the ECJ is effectively free to make the law up as it goes along, which seems to be what it is doing.

On the second point, I was simply suggesting that we play by the EU's own rules on referendums. As they did in Ireland, we should hold repeated votes until we get the outcome we want, and put unlimited amounts of taxpayer money into our favoured campaign.
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