Are we time itself? or does time happen around us?

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Jaeger12
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Ok, random question that's bugging me.
I have been discussing Back to the future and the concept of time travel.

The original question was:

If time machines were real, would time exist within the time machine itself?




I wasn't quite sure what forum to post this question in.
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chocolatesauce
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time is a manmade subject...
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tmorrall
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I'd post it in physics. Special relativity is very interesting if you have five minutes..


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skunkboy
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In terms of physics, time is the relationship between distance, velocity, and the observer. But in terms of true love, there is no measure of time. Time doesn't exist for the dead. So we are not time itself. Time doesn't exist if we don't exist.

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Copperknickers
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(Original post by skunkboy)
In terms of physics, time is the relationship between distance, velocity, and the observer. But in terms of true love, there is no measure of time. Time doesn't exist for the dead. So we are not time itself. Time doesn't exist if we don't exist.

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Not true. Just because you are dead, doesn't mean time stops for the rest of us.
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omfgblackpeople
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time is not constant

unless you take an ultimate time from external to the universe to measure true time

light is contant where as time changed depending on gravity

anything with mass influences time

black holes are bosses for time travel into the future

soz if i got something wrong this is purely off a chinese guy i saw on the tv
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ellthom
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whether time would exist without humanity or not is something we talk about a lot in philosophy.
there are two conclusions where essentially time units such as seconds, minutes and hours is a man made factor, which we use to keep track of the time.
but the sun would still rise and set without humanity, and plants would still grow and die. it depends on how you define the term "time" because you could say it is the units, or it is units passing, the "change".
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Plantagenet Crown
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Because of relativity it seems we move through time rather than time flowing through us.
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SteelScyther
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(Original post by omfgblackpeople)
soz if i got something wrong this is purely off a chinese guy i saw on the tv
I lol'd.

As for OP's question: I think time as we know it is a manmade concept. The passing of minutes, hours, months, and years is something humans made in order to keep track of how things progress. But as for the actual change in the universe - time as it is experienced by everything else - I believe we are just floating forward through it. We don't make it up, but rather we ride it forward.

Also, just as a digression, I'm pretty sure humanity will never invent time travel so that point might be moot. The sole reason for me saying this is because we see no time tourists - surely if we invented time travel our current world would be full of people visiting this point in time from thousands, or millions, of years in the future, and we'd be able to see them. Maybe we will invent it, but just break it straight away
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omfgblackpeople
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(Original post by SteelScyther)
I lol'd.

As for OP's question: I think time as we know it is a manmade concept. The passing of minutes, hours, months, and years is something humans made in order to keep track of how things progress. But as for the actual change in the universe - time as it is experienced by everything else - I believe we are just floating forward through it. We don't make it up, but rather we ride it forward.

Also, just as a digression, I'm pretty sure humanity will never invent time travel so that point might be moot. The sole reason for me saying this is because we see no time tourists - surely if we invented time travel our current world would be full of people visiting this point in time from thousands, or millions, of years in the future, and we'd be able to see them. Maybe we will invent it, but just break it straight away
time travel itself is impossible but time manipulation to take yourself 100 years into the future in 5 minutes of ageing is very much fact

the chinese man does not lie
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russell stacey
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i love hello kitty because it is funny

:2euk48l::angelwings::angelwings:
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Jaeger12
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(Original post by omfgblackpeople)
time travel itself is impossible but time manipulation to take yourself 100 years into the future in 5 minutes of ageing is very much fact

This is the bit that has me stumped. How could you go 100years into the future without aging.
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tmorrall
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(Original post by Jaeger12)
This is the bit that has me stumped. How could you go 100years into the future without aging.
Not strictly true. If you travelled near the speed of light in your frame of reference you age normally but to an observer your time is dilated i.e to them you age more slowly
There is a great example here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox


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omfgblackpeople
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(Original post by Jaeger12)
This is the bit that has me stumped. How could you go 100years into the future without aging.


Kinda hard to get your head round but you'll get there eventually.

Summary - the faster you move, the slower you age in comparison to external observers who are not travelling at your speed.

There is a universal speed limit (the speed of light) to keep things the way they are, time slows down as we get faster so non of the laws governing the universe collapse.
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JohnPaul_
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Time is not man made. We have our own frame of reference, time is the progression from cause to effect. Which is what gave rise to us and everything else. Time, by that definition, is the same whether we are hear or not.

Let's not confuse the passing of time with what time actually is.


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skunkboy
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(Original post by Copperknickers)
Not true. Just because you are dead, doesn't mean time stops for the rest of us.
You misunderstood. For dead people, time doesn't exist.

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tmorrall
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(Original post by skunkboy)
You misunderstood. For dead people, time doesn't exist.

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Do you actually believe in that biocentrism crap?


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JohnPaul_
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(Original post by skunkboy)
You misunderstood. For dead people, time doesn't exist.

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That's not true. It's not like the information which makes the person is destroyed (Conservation of Information Law) because it isn't. When someone dies all of the information becomes scrambled and more scrambled (entropy) and for any of this to happen there still as has to be cause and effect which is essentially what time is. They experience time it's just their senses and perceptions are no longer able to perceive it at all.


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scrotgrot
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The speed of time is a measure of the rate of change of entropy in our locality, which is itself a measure of how fast we are getting new information about how quantum superpositions have collapsed. If you were around during the heat death of the universe, you wouldn't experience any passage of time because there wouldn't be any particles around to collapse with your observations.

(Of course to "experience" anything you would have to be in, or be yourself, an astronomically improbable low-entropy region, so it's tough to say what it would actually be like, or if it's even a meaningful question to ask.)

If entropy is eventually reversed in a big crunch, I suspect we would perceive time running what we would today call "backwards" (though of course it would seem perfectly natural!)

In summary the illusion of time is about the way we perceive the probability distribution of quantum states of our local universe. We think we see the parts of the distribution that have more superpositions and less collapses "first", and progressively on until the "end" of the distribution with least superpositions and most collapses.

Presumably the reason why we experience this linearly is because of the logic of information being linear, i.e. it is a logical impossibility to experience a more information-heavy state (the future) "before" a less information-heavy state (the past), because simply by observing the more information-heavy state we can infer the less information-heavy state from that, since the information in the less information-heavy state is a subset of that in the more information-heavy state.

Why this is how logic works is a question that, I suppose, can never be answered, since we are using deductive logic itself to work it out.

From a vantage point outside the universe, in a higher dimension, we would see a block universe, which is ever-unchanging, and therefore instantaneous. From that vantage point, which you may think of as God's vantage point if you like, we see the timeline in its entirety all at once, which means the same thing as having all the information at the end of the universe. So I would like to think, if I want to get mystical, that at the end of the universe all observers in it, including inanimate particles, (per relational QM) club together to become God.
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skunkboy
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(Original post by JohnPaul_)
That's not true. It's not like the information which makes the person is destroyed (Conservation of Information Law) because it isn't. When someone dies all of the information becomes scrambled and more scrambled (entropy) and for any of this to happen there still as has to be cause and effect which is essentially what time is. They experience time it's just their senses and perceptions are no longer able to perceive it at all.


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1. What is Conservation of Information Law?
2. How do you know all of the info becomes scrambled when someone dies? That someone told you?
3. How do they experience time if no more senses or perceptions? Who or what measures time?

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