women's titles in chess : an insult to women?

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thecrediblehulk
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#1
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#1
there are 2 types of titles in chess : gender free(anyone who is good enough can get them) and women's. the women's require a much lower rating and therefore are of lower value, overall. very few women can match the men at the top and only one has ever been able to go toe to toe with the very best. what kind of message does this send to women though? that they are good enough for a girl? another similar issue is the maths olympiads for girls : oh , you couldn't hang with the boys, but it's ok, you're pretty good for a girl. it's insulting.

if black people come short in chess, should we have black grandmasters titles as well? math olympiads for black people? i'm pretty sure society would never put up with that.
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Saark
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#2
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#2
Um black people don't play chess.. should we have basketball for white people? Maybe what about swimming for black people? Maybe, what about football for women? Oh yes, umm what about.. maths comp for women? Maybe

Look I don't make the rules, but you gotta play the rules to your advantage, so say there was a good black at chess, then I would be like well if im gonna win he cant play so I'd be like umm hey you want a black only chess so you can play by yourself?
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Mackay
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#3
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#3
Women don't play five sets in tennis either. Nothing new here imo.
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tazarooni89
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#4
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#4
(Original post by thecrediblehulk)
there are 2 types of titles in chess : gender free(anyone who is good enough can get them) and women's. the women's require a much lower rating and therefore are of lower value, overall. very few women can match the men at the top and only one has ever been able to go toe to toe with the very best. what kind of message does this send to women though? that they are good enough for a girl? another similar issue is the maths olympiads for girls : oh , you couldn't hang with the boys, but it's ok, you're pretty good for a girl. it's insulting.
In principle, this isn't really that different to having sports competitions that are for females only though. The fact is that for whatever reason, women on the whole aren't as good at, or as interested in Maths or Chess as men are. It might be due to their innate nature, like sports (in which case, it would still make sense to have separate competitions), or it might just be due to them not being as interested in it as men are, due to societal perceptions that they are not very feminine things to do - in which case a women's only competition could be useful to raise interest, and provide encouragement for those who can become top competitors, to actually go ahead and do so.

if black people come short in chess, should we have black grandmasters titles as well? math olympiads for black people? i'm pretty sure society would never put up with that.
We separate maths olympiads and chess competitions into lots of other categories though. For example, as well as gender, they're also separated by age group and country/nationality.

They're not separated by ethnicity, firstly because you can't - since ethnicity is more of a continuous spectrum rather than something that you either "are or aren't". And also because due to unfortunate ways in which racism has existed in history, it's something that society as a whole is much more sensitive about.
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Octohedral
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#5
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As a woman (who did well in the gender neutral maths Olympiads) I completely agree.

I see why you would want to improve girls' participation in sport and chess - it benefits everyone to have fit / mathsy girls in existence - but this sends out the wrong message.
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Bill_Gates
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#6
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#6
Please someone cancel womens tennis.
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Zarek
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#7
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#7
Strange that chess is separated by gender. I wonder why. Perhaps it's because women would have an unfair advantge, with the possibility to wear a cleavage revealing low cut top. Probably difficult, even for a grand master guy, to think 20 moves ahead in this situation.
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Octohedral
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#8
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(Original post by Bill_Gates)
Please someone cancel womens tennis.
If they did this then women would have to be able to compete in men's tennis. It doesn't matter if none of them qualify, it's the opportunity that matters.

However, it isn't clear cut. Even as a woman I don't like the idea that women need their own competitions, particularly in maths / chess, where it is possible for women to get to the top, even if the numbers are tiny. However, I do see why you would want to encourage girls to go into sport. It doesn't mean they should get the same amount of praise for achieving less, but sport has two sides - competition and participation - and it's possible to encourage participation without compromising the competitive element.
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ukmed108
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Zarek)
Strange that chess is separated by gender. I wonder why. Perhaps it's because women would have an unfair advantge, with the possibility to wear a cleavage revealing low cut top. Probably difficult, even for a grand master guy, to think 20 moves ahead in this situation.
It'll only be difficult for you.
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Zarek
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#10
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#10
(Original post by ukmed108)
It'll only be difficult for you.
Yes, you could be right
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tomov
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tomov
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thecrediblehulk
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#13
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#13
(Original post by Octohedral)
If they did this then women would have to be able to compete in men's tennis. It doesn't matter if none of them qualify, it's the opportunity that matters.

However, it isn't clear cut. Even as a woman I don't like the idea that women need their own competitions, particularly in maths / chess, where it is possible for women to get to the top, even if the numbers are tiny. However, I do see why you would want to encourage girls to go into sport. It doesn't mean they should get the same amount of praise for achieving less, but sport has two sides - competition and participation - and it's possible to encourage participation without compromising the competitive element.
the best woman in tennis couldn't break into the first 1000 if she only played men. when it comes to ''brainy'' areas i think it is much, much closer. i think the best women (although there are few of them) would be somewhat close to the best men. but i doubt they would have that ''je ne sais quoi'', whatever it is, that makes an absolute genius. i very much doubt there would be a female mozart, michelangelo, perelman, kasparov or einstein. maybe it's that pesky y chromosome, i don't know....
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Octohedral
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#14
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#14
(Original post by thecrediblehulk)
the best woman in tennis couldn't break into the first 1000 if she only played men. when it comes to ''brainy'' areas i think it is much, much closer. i think the best women (although there are few of them) would be somewhat close to the best men. but i doubt they would have that ''je ne sais quoi'', whatever it is, that makes an absolute genius. i very much doubt there would be a female mozart, michelangelo, perelman, kasparov or einstein. maybe it's that pesky y chromosome, i don't know....
I'm not going to argue you are wrong for the sake of it, as there are so many factors that I genuinely have no idea, but nor do I think it really matters to the individual. People like Emmy Noether come fairly close (though it must be pretty annoying to be remembered as 'that female mathematician'). If a Y chromosome is an advantage then so is simply being born intelligent. Genetics aren't fair, I know that, but personally I would prefer a free for all, where if the best are all men then so be it.
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thecrediblehulk
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Octohedral)
I'm not going to argue you are wrong for the sake of it, as there are so many factors that I genuinely have no idea, but nor do I think it really matters to the individual. People like Emmy Noether come fairly close (though it must be pretty annoying to be remembered as 'that female mathematician'). If a Y chromosome is an advantage then so is simply being born intelligent. Genetics aren't fair, I know that, but personally I would prefer a free for all, where if the best are all men then so be it.

most women who have these titles are more than happy to parade them but would never admit there might even be a biological factor involved when it comes to why men are so dominant. judit polgar, the best female chess player of all time, doesn't even bother with all female tournaments. now that's a role model, doesn't play the victim card and is ready to slug it out with the men without any extra wheels to her bicycle.
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MagicNMedicine
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#16
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#16
They could glamorise womens chess a bit. Produce some posters with a female player in her underwear sucking provocatively on a chess piece with a caption "Bash Your Bishop?" or "Hard Core Pawn".
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caravaggio2
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#17
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#17
(Original post by thecrediblehulk)
most women who have these titles are more than happy to parade them but would never admit there might even be a biological factor involved when it comes to why men are so dominant. judit polgar, the best female chess player of all time, doesn't even bother with all female tournaments. now that's a role model, doesn't play the victim card and is ready to slug it out with the men without any extra wheels to her bicycle.
Brilliantly put and sums it up perfectly.
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Hopple
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#18
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#18
Either have separate men's and women's competitions, or lump them all together. Don't build into the system that you get promoted from the women's competition into the everyone's competition.
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El Salvador
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#19
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#19
There were music awards like 'best black single' or 'best black album' and they were abolished only after they participate equally in mainstream pop music.
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thecrediblehulk
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#20
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#20
(Original post by Hopple)
Either have separate men's and women's competitions, or lump them all together. Don't build into the system that you get promoted from the women's competition into the everyone's competition.
yes but the they would have to admit that ''gasp'' men's and women's brains are different. and that men are biologically better on average. that's unacceptable in the modern western world.

and people who claim it's because of men being into chess a lot more than women. scrabble and bridge have a female majority yet which gender makes up over 90% of top players:

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