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Eurozone countries should form United States of Europe, says EC vice-president

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Original post by Saoirse:3
See, you're illustrating the problem perfectly. The part of Ireland I'm from in particular most certainly does not view out native tongue as a waste of time. Any Brussels Bureaucrat who came up with the stuff you just posted would not be winning a vote on his proposals any time soon.


Not sure what is so radical about I have just posted.

Well, maybe somewhere in the west of Ireland, Gaelic is of some use. Why exactly it's mandatory for children to learn is beyond me.

Paying 60 euros to see the GP?

90 percent of schools controlled by the Catholic Church ? Discrimination against non Catholics ?

Those bureaucrats are looking better.
Reply 21
Original post by Old_Simon
It is not for minor unelected European bureaucrats to criticise the policy of the democratically elected, largely accountable, and clearly transparent Coalition Government of Her Majesty and the people of the United Kingdom. Didn't Belgium close their government down entirely for a while ? I am beginning to realise that the "free movement of labour" - another subject Ms Reding saw fit to lecture us on - is an EU ploy to undermine national identities of sovereign states.


Given the euphoria around the royals, it can't be working very well.
Reply 22
Original post by DorianGrayism
Not sure what is so radical about I have just posted.

Well, maybe somewhere in the west of Ireland, Gaelic is of some use. Why exactly it's mandatory for children to learn is beyond me.

Paying 60 euros to see the GP?

90 percent of schools controlled by the Catholic Church ? Discrimination against non Catholics ?

Those bureaucrats are looking better.


Its mandatory for the same reason it is in Wales, it encourages the next generation to have a nationalistic ejaculation.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Not sure what is so radical about I have just posted.

Well, maybe somewhere in the west of Ireland, Gaelic is of some use. Why exactly it's mandatory for children to learn is beyond me.

Paying 60 euros to see the GP?

90 percent of schools controlled by the Catholic Church ? Discrimination against non Catholics ?

Those bureaucrats are looking better.


What's so radical isn't your policy ideas. The issue is, whether or not you agree with their policies, they are for the Irish to decide. It is relatively religious and patriotic country, and on a democratic basis is run as such. To be blunt, no-one in Ireland cares one iota whether someone in Britain, Belgium or France reckons they should learn Irish in school. If they believe it's the right thing to do for their nation, they'll do it. That's democracy. You cannot operate politics in a vacuum where cultural differences are ignored and policies imposed by people unconnected and arguably illegitimate - it will cause only resentment.
Original post by Saoirse:3
What's so radical isn't your policy ideas. The issue is, whether or not you agree with their policies, they are for the Irish to decide. It is relatively religious and patriotic country, and on a democratic basis is run as such. To be blunt, no-one in Ireland cares one iota whether someone in Britain, Belgium or France reckons they should learn Irish in school. If they believe it's the right thing to do for their nation, they'll do it. That's democracy. You cannot operate politics in a vacuum where cultural differences are ignored and policies imposed by people unconnected and arguably illegitimate - it will cause only resentment.

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Of course, they are for the Irish people. They are sensible policies.

I don't doubt there is support for learning Gaelic in Ireland. However, that does not make it sensible.

With regards to education, I doubt there is significant support for religious bigots to control the education system so they can continue their system of discrimination.
Original post by DorianGrayism
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Of course, they are for the Irish people. They are sensible policies.

I don't doubt there is support for learning Gaelic in Ireland. However, that does not make it sensible.

With regards to education, I doubt there is significant support for religious bigots to control the education system so they can continue their system of discrimination.


It's not about the policies. It's not about being sensible. It's about the freedom to decide. It is subjective, and decisions for the nation of Ireland should be made by the people of Ireland. That's why I oppose federalisation.
Reply 26
Original post by Rakas21
This is nothing new and i'm quite happy for the Euro-zone to become a federal nation (at this stage the UK should not be part of it - though for different reasons than the Euro-skeptics).


Want reason would that be? Just out of interest, usually enjoy your opinion on things.
Original post by Saoirse:3
It's not about the policies. It's not about being sensible. It's about the freedom to decide. It is subjective, and decisions for the nation of Ireland should be made by the people of Ireland. That's why I oppose federalisation.


Where did I say that there should be further federalisation or Irish people should not be allowed to choose?

No. My point was that the Irish Healthcare system and Education system is nothing to be protected. You don't even disagree.

I should add, let's not pretend that the Irish people are truly free to choose. If it was not for Europe and the ECHR, who knows what insane policies the Irish Government would have cooked up to please the religious and nationalists.
Reply 28
Original post by Swanbow
Want reason would that be? Just out of interest, usually enjoy your opinion on things.


Well essentially we start from the position that I don't oppose federalism involving the UK and Europe (though I'd prefer the Anglosphere).

With regards to the Euro I'm not convinced measures have been taken to prevent another debt crisis in some states. Assuming that they actually enforce fiscal surplus then to prevent another crisis you still need either to have economies following the same model (so that the exchange rate is right for everybody) or you need mutual debt issuance so that the Euro debt is judged as a whole rather than individually (Germany would pay higher bond rates than now, Greece less due to the fact that Eurobonds would be closer to an average position). Neither of these has sufficiently occurred and there's no guarantee that the Spanish government will stick to a German export model. Equally the UK would need option 2 since we run stinking trade deficits.

With regards to the EU I won't support federalism with a body who's structure is designed to amplify the vested interests of nation states (the commission actually gets its orders from the council). Until the parliament is given supremacy and the commission made up of MEPs I'm hesitant to integrate.

My main objection though is the unified armed forces. Europe is too pacifist.
Reply 29
Original post by Rakas21
Well essentially we start from the position that I don't oppose federalism involving the UK and Europe (though I'd prefer the Anglosphere).

With regards to the Euro I'm not convinced measures have been taken to prevent another debt crisis in some states. Assuming that they actually enforce fiscal surplus then to prevent another crisis you still need either to have economies following the same model (so that the exchange rate is right for everybody) or you need mutual debt issuance so that the Euro debt is judged as a whole rather than individually (Germany would pay higher bond rates than now, Greece less due to the fact that Eurobonds would be closer to an average position). Neither of these has sufficiently occurred and there's no guarantee that the Spanish government will stick to a German export model. Equally the UK would need option 2 since we run stinking trade deficits.

With regards to the EU I won't support federalism with a body who's structure is designed to amplify the vested interests of nation states (the commission actually gets its orders from the council). Until the parliament is given supremacy and the commission made up of MEPs I'm hesitant to integrate.

My main objection though is the unified armed forces. Europe is too pacifist.


What do you think the merits of an Anglosphere would be? Obviously we share linguistic and cultural similarities, but would it be economically viable? Also how far would membership extend, do we accept commonwealth countries without a significant native English speaking population, i.e. South Africa, India?

Have to agree that a unified armed force is a bad idea. The security needs of the United Kingdom and France could not be met by a unified EU Military. Plus with the issue of reluctance to use force, Europe would probably sit out of every conflict even when it is in their interest. NATO in my opinion still fills a sufficient role in security.
So we can fund more bureaucracy for the privilege of being in the same country as the French?

No thanks.
Reply 31
Original post by Swanbow
What do you think the merits of an Anglosphere would be? Obviously we share linguistic and cultural similarities, but would it be economically viable? Also how far would membership extend, do we accept commonwealth countries without a significant native English speaking population, i.e. South Africa, India?

Have to agree that a unified armed force is a bad idea. The security needs of the United Kingdom and France could not be met by a unified EU Military. Plus with the issue of reluctance to use force, Europe would probably sit out of every conflict even when it is in their interest. NATO in my opinion still fills a sufficient role in security.


The merits of a customs union alone would provide free movement of goods, capital, labour and trade. Political union simply extends that to crime and global affairs (a larger voice) but mainly I think it gives a sense of union and being one people.

Economically all you need is a body to enforce fiscal discipline and mutual debt and I'd say its viable. We'd be a large market at nearly $7tn as well with approaching 140m people.

Uk plus Ireland plus Canada plus Australia plus New Zealand plus overseas territories would be my pick.

Its a good idea mechanically, its the cultural issue of how involved states like to be that's the problem. I for example favour the UK bombing Assad into submission with our significant air superiority, Germany does not.

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