Should the UK abolish its monarchy? Watch

Burridge
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Self-exmplanatory really. What are your thoughts on the UK monarchy? Should the UK become a republic?

I personally abhor the concept of the monarchy - I'm a republican. I'd much rather have an elected head of state.

What about you?
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Chillaxer
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See my thread mate above.
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Llamageddon
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I think you can make a lot of pragmatic arguments for the monarchy. It's part of our tradition in culture, we appear to actually make money from them and a lot of the expenses would be seen with an elected head of state, also. All that said the idea of a hereditary head of state is to me abhorrent regardless of whether or not they have real power.

I'm undecided on whether I think they're good or bad for britain but I'm ideologically opposed to them.
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Ripper-Roo
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In the very basic sense how can anyone justify an unelected head of state? They're given privilege and people just put up with it.
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Burridge
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(Original post by Llamageddon)
I think you can make a lot of pragmatic arguments for the monarchy. It's part of our tradition in culture, we appear to actually make money from them and a lot of the expenses would be seen with an elected head of state, also. All that said the idea of a hereditary head of state is to me abhorrent regardless of whether or not they have real power.

I'm undecided on whether I think they're good or bad for britain but I'm ideologically opposed to them.
Perhaps the only argument I can sympathise with is the fact that the monarchy is a British tradition. I see no other reason to support our unelected head of state. With that being said, tradition isn't in itself a very compelling answer - it's not very rational to base your argument on whether we should keep the monarchy or not on how long we've had it for - just imagine where society would be today it that were the case (slavery? universal suffrage?). And the idea that the monarchy makes money isn't true (the tourism debate is a complete non-starter). Anyhow, the real issue here for me revolves around the undemocratic nature of our monarchy, so the economic arguments are pretty irrelevant. I too am ideologically opposed to the monarchy.

(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
In the very basic sense how can anyone justify an unelected head of state? They're given privilege and people just put up with it.
I agree 100%.
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JamesGibson
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Keep them for the cultural benefit, but nationalise all of their assets. They might already be nationalised, but I'm talking about actually taking all of the wealth owned by the Royal Family and reinvesting it in the economy and public budget.

There may very well be cultural and tourist benefits to having a Royal Family, however that does not justify their obscene wealth and privilege. Keep the Royal Family, just take their money.
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tengentoppa
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I'd rather we be the best constitutional monarchy in the world rather than a second-rate republic behind the USA and France.
The tourism issue is tricky, as you can't really quantify the impact the royals have.
They're also decent ambassadors. E.g. Merkel's having tea with the queen. The fashion choices of the Duchess of Cambridge are always observed and are a good way of promoting British fashion.
Also, logistical terms. Almost everything is "royal something", and royalty is embedded in our political and legal system. Sounds like a lot of hassle to get rid of.
Finally, the monarchy gives a kind of stability and insurance that we're not going to get ****ed over. Look at France, and the way Presidents like Sarkozy abuse their power. The royals couldn't do that. An apolitical head of state, who doesn't follow public opinion or do everything with an eye to votes, is a good thing.
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racheyroo
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
In the very basic sense how can anyone justify an unelected head of state? They're given privilege and people just put up with it.
This, i don't see why everyone thinks they're so amazing, all they've done is inherit wealth and a position
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Ripper-Roo
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Tourism is a pathetic argument
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thesabbath
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(Original post by JamesGibson)
Keep them for the cultural benefit, but nationalise all of their assets. They might already be nationalised, but I'm talking about actually taking all of the wealth owned by the Royal Family and reinvesting it in the economy and public budget.

There may very well be cultural and tourist benefits to having a Royal Family, however that does not justify their obscene wealth and privilege. Keep the Royal Family, just take their money.
Property Rights are Human Rights.

Besides, the Crown Estate is already controlled by the State which is reflected in the fact that it pays 85% tax on its income.
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thesabbath
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
In the very basic sense how can anyone justify an unelected head of state? They're given privilege and people just put up with it.
It reminds ideologically blinkered Lefties that life isn't fair and never will be no matter how many platitudes they spout about "equality", that's reason enough isn't it?
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goldie56
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Nah. I'd say it's better to have an apolitical head of state - we can't be like the inferior French
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Libtardian
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I think a simple way to democratize the current system and please both sides is to have a vote every general election, do we keep the monarchy or not?
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Ripper-Roo
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(Original post by thesabbath)
It reminds ideologically blinkered Lefties that life isn't fair and never will be no matter how many platitudes they spout about "equality", that's reason enough isn't it?
So you think someone should be rewarded just for being born from the right vagina? Gosh some people really hate "lefties" they'd argue anything to be on the opposing side.
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gladders
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
So you think someone should be rewarded just for being born from the right vagina?
To be flippant for just a bit (just this once!) - lots of people are rewarded in this manner all the time. Some are born into rich parentage, some are born to poor ones.

To be serious, though, anybody who argues that the monarchy exists because the poor British are blighted by a concern for birthright is both wrong and missing the point.

We require someone to occupy the office of Head of State, which in this country (as in many others, republics or not) is a ceremonial position but possesses reserve powers that are deliberately kept out of the ready reach of the Executive and the Legislature.

It is highly desirable that the occupier of that office be not beholden to either the Executive or the Legislature, is able to maintain a long-term view, and should only seek to use the powers they wield in the most dire emergencies.

A highly effective way of achieving this is through inheritance, because this means the officeholder holds certain legitimacies and not others: the legitimacy of grandure, and of the long-term view, and of not being a politician, while explicitly not have the legitimacy to use those powers independently or for political motive: they must seek to be as impartial as they can.
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Burridge
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(Original post by JamesGibson)
Keep them for the cultural benefit, but nationalise all of their assets. They might already be nationalised, but I'm talking about actually taking all of the wealth owned by the Royal Family and reinvesting it in the economy and public budget.

There may very well be cultural and tourist benefits to having a Royal Family, however that does not justify their obscene wealth and privilege. Keep the Royal Family, just take their money.
I like the idea, though I think it may be a little difficult to implement!

(Original post by tengentoppa)
I'd rather we be the best constitutional monarchy in the world rather than a second-rate republic behind the USA and France.
The tourism issue is tricky, as you can't really quantify the impact the royals have.
They're also decent ambassadors. E.g. Merkel's having tea with the queen. The fashion choices of the Duchess of Cambridge are always observed and are a good way of promoting British fashion.
Also, logistical terms. Almost everything is "royal something", and royalty is embedded in our political and legal system. Sounds like a lot of hassle to get rid of.
Finally, the monarchy gives a kind of stability and insurance that we're not going to get ****ed over. Look at France, and the way Presidents like Sarkozy abuse their power. The royals couldn't do that. An apolitical head of state, who doesn't follow public opinion or do everything with an eye to votes, is a good thing.
Who is to say that we'd have a second-rate republic? They're good ambassadors? Are you really telling me that we should keep the Royal Family because our gracious Queen is having tea with Angela Merkel or that Kate has a decent dress sense? And it's true that we would have to go to some lengths to remove all remnants of our monarchy from our systems, but for me it's worth it - I value democracy more than that. And the last point seems a little silly - how would the Queen stop an abuse of power? Who is to say than an elected representative would abuse their position? What makes you'd think that they would get away with it if that were the case? Would Parliament not intervene? What about Judicial Review?

(Original post by thesabbath)
It reminds ideologically blinkered Lefties that life isn't fair and never will be no matter how many platitudes they spout about "equality", that's reason enough isn't it?
Life isn't fair? So that means that we should completely abandon commitments to equality or opportunity does it?
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thesabbath
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(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
So you think someone should be rewarded just for being born from the right vagina? Gosh some people really hate "lefties" they'd argue anything to be on the opposing side.
I speak not of "rewards" but of not punishing those whose ancestors have contributed in some way to the well-being of their progeny. Our monarchy may be a particularly overt reflection of inherited advantage however this is no excuse for destroying it on grounds of envy.

Life isn't fair? So that means that we should completely abandon commitments to equality or opportunity does it?
What are you endeavouring to achieve?

When I hear Communists (with their language now co-opted by the mainstream Left) talk of "equality" I am fully aware that what they seek is impossible. It is a pipe dream. It does not reflect any society that ever has or ever will exist that is populated by humans.

So what should I do when they claim that savagely disintegrating and deconstructing the institutions which have built a society which gives them the freedom to spout their bile will help them on their way? I presently take their claims with a pinch of salt. Perhaps you have some more persuasive arguments?
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felamaslen
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It ain't broke. Don't fix it.
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KICHMYARSE
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most of us in london dont even notice them. let alone care about them. in a way, they are already gone, long gone.

they have nice estates, dont they? they are self-sufficient as well? there is no point in forcing them out or removing them. you cant remove things that arent there.
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TheHistoryStudent
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Yes.
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