USR vs USSA Watch

Davij038
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#1
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What would have been the outcome if a communist America went to war with an American style russia during the cold war period, (assuming a Marxist revoloution of the USA in 1917 and the overthrow of the Tzar at the same time?

Thanks for any ideas!

Got a slight idea for a possible storry....
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Клейтон
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#2
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Interesting... As someone who (vaguely) remembers post-soviet Russia as a little kid, I think it probably wouldn't work out well as a story/novel but hey, who knows.
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Oldcon1953
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I thought I had heard it all. That'll teach me to think. Fascinating storyline. As far the outcome of the two countries given your bizzare scenario; it hurts me to think about it.LOL. Woodrow Wilson as a Marxist revolutionary. WOW. Come to think of it, he was a Democrat, naaah, just kidding. In your scenario does each country have the same leaders? Or do you transplant them? If the S.U. had enjoyed the economic boom the U.S. did from the turn of the century through the 20s, skip the depression than from post WWII to the 70s than and we would have endured the economic stagnation and collapse they did, than they probably would have come out the victor and it would be them would gets all the B.S. thrown at them for being the, "biggest bullies ever".LOL. As dark as the images are that your scnarieo conjoures, I can't stop thinking about it. Give me a little more to go one, Comrade.
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kaiserlucas
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Well, the idea of an American-style Russia in its purest sense would be very hard to obtain as there would be great political instability going on and it was a very backwards and rural culture back in 1917, which means the country would pretty much end up like Latin America or China between 1912 to 1949 with warlords fighting now and then, communities in Siberia and in the Urals being very isolated economically, politically and societally and perhaps a few prosperous industries would be located in the European part and in the largest cities. But overall, it wouldn't be a real superpower.

Let's say it happens as you say it. The USA becomes communist in 1917, since it is a very diverse and big country, like Russia is, I believe that a strong and consolidated Communist country wouldn't be set up until at least the mid-20s. I assume the neighbouring countries would attack the American territory as they did in Russia, but these could also fall into pro-communist revolutions and actually win, although this is not very likely. With the US not entering WW1, the Allies in Europe are still fighting and WW1 is prolongated, most likely with a German victory and the Allies losing the war since the USA hasn't sent over any troops and they no longer sell products to Europe. This changes everything, the Western powers are weakened and probably revolutions/civil war takes place between communists, democrats and fascist-like rising powers, or a German military administration ruling over the countries to some extent. This also means that the British and French colonial empires dissapear or semi-dissapear, with the Germans and perhaps the Austrians taking the most valuable territories in Africa, Asia and the Indian subcontinent and the more 'structured' colonies (Australia, New Zealand become vassals to Germany, or fall in civil war like Britain or France did. One notable case is Canada, which also experiences a communist insurrection due to its proximity to the USA, which most likely succeeds if the USA suceeded. This means that most of the American Continent is under communism or under revolutions and civil wars. This will obviously take quite a while, probably even decades until communist power is consolidated throughout the Americas. The Americas will isolate from the rest of the world and due to it being protected by the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans they most likely won't be seriously invaded by anyone else, also given the fact that Germany probably wants to 'breathe' after the exhaustion of WW1. This new, strange country is the communist utopia as it is pretty much world revolution, like the USSR, countires will become socialist republics and will be very self-sufficient, although very hard to control. The official languages will be English, Spanish, Portuguese and to a lesser extent, French, but mostly English and Spanish would be predominant. North America will be the region where communism is the most present, and it will only purely reach all the other republics up until maybe the late 1930s if everything goes well, it will be the largest country in the world with the best armed forces (although Germany might be better off technologically), there might be an influx of European immigration, which will furtherly develop the whole region and might accelerate the development process.

Russia would fall into various waves of revolts, wars and revolutions, but if capitalism wins, it wins. Germany probably would take the Baltic countries, Ukraine and parts of European Russia and would incorporate them as part of the Empire or create puppet states (lots of bloodshed here).Many countries such as the Caucasus and Central Asia would declare their independence and probably create an alliance with Germany, which will be met with resistance of Russia, the Ottoman Empire probably would take some portions of the remnants of the Russian Empire and Japan in the east would penetrate even more into the Eastern part of Russia and annex it to Manchukuo or something of the sort. They probably ahve to initially pay reparations to Germany but if the right capitalist leader takes over, it will be more or less fine. Industries would be developed and created around big cities and the Urals, and perhaps some influential people from Western Europe or the Americas would establish themselves in Russia and start industries with the existing natural resources, it will get richer bit by bit but society would still be mostly rural. They'd have no contact with the Union of American Socialist Republics and try to avoid Germany or the threats of another war, they probably would try to recapture counties of the old Russian Empire as they get richer, they'd still be a big country. Over the years there is no majour conflicts and borders start to be set and drawn. Regarding the UARS, it pretty much occupies the whole continent, except very remote areas such as the Arctic and Antartic zones and the jungles in South America, although there would be more "equality" there is obviously a notable cultural and economical difference between the US and Canada and the other republics. Russia would be a capitalist society which isn't that influential or powerful but, in some ways, in our timeline they are the third-most powerful country in the world (if Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire still manage to survive and become influential in some way) while Europe would largely be very German-dominated. Fast forward to around the late 1930s and the Russian/German (and pro-German Europe) would be militarised, the two governments are suspicous of one another but nothing major, communist and fascist revolutions probably would fail in France and the United Kingdom and the UARS would probably want to continue the pursuit of world communist revolution and unsuccessfully send some incursions into Siberia which will cause some confrontations with the Japanese, who are by now the dominant force in Asia, but nothing major, Russia will probably sign some treaty with Japan which enables them to get back some of the captured territory.

So yes, this is how I see this scenario (maybe years later there is a war between Communist America and Japan which will be helped by Germany and Russia in order to prevent a world communist revolution or something of the sort).
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kaiserlucas
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#5
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Oh, also I doubt Germany would create some League of Nations kind of institution and would be temporarily militarily present in eastern France (A bit like the Treaty of Versailles), the French people would overthrow the government and riots and revolts would happen rutinely, although this isn't good for Germany, they can always strike militarily, so France would be in a constant anarchy, but officially it would still be a liberal democracy (a bit like post-war Weimar Republic but MUCH MUCH worse), and the United Kingdom probably would be like the Weimar Republic.
(Original post by kaiserlucas)
Well, the idea of an American-style Russia in its purest sense would be very hard to obtain as there would be great political instability going on and it was a very backwards and rural culture back in 1917, which means the country would pretty much end up like Latin America or China between 1912 to 1949 with warlords fighting now and then, communities in Siberia and in the Urals being very isolated economically, politically and societally and perhaps a few prosperous industries would be located in the European part and in the largest cities. But overall, it wouldn't be a real superpower.

Let's say it happens as you say it. The USA becomes communist in 1917, since it is a very diverse and big country, like Russia is, I believe that a strong and consolidated Communist country wouldn't be set up until at least the mid-20s. I assume the neighbouring countries would attack the American territory as they did in Russia, but these could also fall into pro-communist revolutions and actually win, although this is not very likely. With the US not entering WW1, the Allies in Europe are still fighting and WW1 is prolongated, most likely with a German victory and the Allies losing the war since the USA hasn't sent over any troops and they no longer sell products to Europe. This changes everything, the Western powers are weakened and probably revolutions/civil war takes place between communists, democrats and fascist-like rising powers, or a German military administration ruling over the countries to some extent. This also means that the British and French colonial empires dissapear or semi-dissapear, with the Germans and perhaps the Austrians taking the most valuable territories in Africa, Asia and the Indian subcontinent and the more 'structured' colonies (Australia, New Zealand become vassals to Germany, or fall in civil war like Britain or France did. One notable case is Canada, which also experiences a communist insurrection due to its proximity to the USA, which most likely succeeds if the USA suceeded. This means that most of the American Continent is under communism or under revolutions and civil wars. This will obviously take quite a while, probably even decades until communist power is consolidated throughout the Americas. The Americas will isolate from the rest of the world and due to it being protected by the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans they most likely won't be seriously invaded by anyone else, also given the fact that Germany probably wants to 'breathe' after the exhaustion of WW1. This new, strange country is the communist utopia as it is pretty much world revolution, like the USSR, countires will become socialist republics and will be very self-sufficient, although very hard to control. The official languages will be English, Spanish, Portuguese and to a lesser extent, French, but mostly English and Spanish would be predominant. North America will be the region where communism is the most present, and it will only purely reach all the other republics up until maybe the late 1930s if everything goes well, it will be the largest country in the world with the best armed forces (although Germany might be better off technologically), there might be an influx of European immigration, which will furtherly develop the whole region and might accelerate the development process.

Russia would fall into various waves of revolts, wars and revolutions, but if capitalism wins, it wins. Germany probably would take the Baltic countries, Ukraine and parts of European Russia and would incorporate them as part of the Empire or create puppet states (lots of bloodshed here).Many countries such as the Caucasus and Central Asia would declare their independence and probably create an alliance with Germany, which will be met with resistance of Russia, the Ottoman Empire probably would take some portions of the remnants of the Russian Empire and Japan in the east would penetrate even more into the Eastern part of Russia and annex it to Manchukuo or something of the sort. They probably ahve to initially pay reparations to Germany but if the right capitalist leader takes over, it will be more or less fine. Industries would be developed and created around big cities and the Urals, and perhaps some influential people from Western Europe or the Americas would establish themselves in Russia and start industries with the existing natural resources, it will get richer bit by bit but society would still be mostly rural. They'd have no contact with the Union of American Socialist Republics and try to avoid Germany or the threats of another war, they probably would try to recapture counties of the old Russian Empire as they get richer, they'd still be a big country. Over the years there is no majour conflicts and borders start to be set and drawn. Regarding the UARS, it pretty much occupies the whole continent, except very remote areas such as the Arctic and Antartic zones and the jungles in South America, although there would be more "equality" there is obviously a notable cultural and economical difference between the US and Canada and the other republics. Russia would be a capitalist society which isn't that influential or powerful but, in some ways, in our timeline they are the third-most powerful country in the world (if Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire still manage to survive and become influential in some way) while Europe would largely be very German-dominated. Fast forward to around the late 1930s and the Russian/German (and pro-German Europe) would be militarised, the two governments are suspicous of one another but nothing major, communist and fascist revolutions probably would fail in France and the United Kingdom and the UARS would probably want to continue the pursuit of world communist revolution and unsuccessfully send some incursions into Siberia which will cause some confrontations with the Japanese, who are by now the dominant force in Asia, but nothing major, Russia will probably sign some treaty with Japan which enables them to get back some of the captured territory.

So yes, this is how I see this scenario (maybe years later there is a war between Communist America and Japan which will be helped by Germany and Russia in order to prevent a world communist revolution or something of the sort).
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