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Challenge - Theoretical Physics Question

I claim that a neutrino is truly massless. Is it possible for the neutrino to decay (into two or more fragments) in free space? Why or why not?
If the mass of a neutrino is high enough after beta decay of an atomic nucleus, so yes. If the mass of a neutrino is too small, so no. The small mass of neutrino would be too stable to decay.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 2
Original post by WishingChaff
I claim that a neutrino is truly massless. Is it possible for the neutrino to decay (into two or more fragments) in free space? Why or why not?


Short answer: No.

Long answer:

I believe that in all known (and theorised) particle decays, the total mass of the system necessarily decreases. Say you have particle P P which is stationary and has mass m0 m_0 . P P decays into two particles D1 D_1 and D2 D_2 , both of mass m1 m_1 .

Now, in order for momentum to be conserved, both particles most have equal and opposite velocities of magnitude v v . If both particles have velocities, that means they have kinetic energy AS WELL AS mass energy. So in order for the total energy of the system to be conserved,
Unparseable latex formula:

\varepsilon_k_0 + \varepsilon_m_0 = \varepsilon_k_1 + \varepsilon_m_1

, or, m0c2+m0×0=2×(m1c2+m1v) m_0 c^2 + m_0 \times 0 = 2 \times (m_1 c^2 + m_1 v)

As you can see, if m0=2m1 m_0 = 2m_1 , this equation doesn't work unless v=0 v = 0 , which would make the decay invalid, as the particle isn't really decaying at all.

In conclusion, if the mass of a neutrino were 0, it would be impossible for it to decay into any other particles as the mass of the system must decrease (and you can't have a negative mass!). The only other possible decay path would be into another massless particle, such as a photon or graviton, however neither of these decays would conserve lepton number.
Reply 3
Original post by wofldog
Short answer: No.

Long answer:

I believe that in all known (and theorised) particle decays, the total mass of the system necessarily decreases. Say you have particle P P which is stationary and has mass m0 m_0 . P P decays into two particles D1 D_1 and D2 D_2 , both of mass m1 m_1 .

Now, in order for momentum to be conserved, both particles most have equal and opposite velocities of magnitude v v . If both particles have velocities, that means they have kinetic energy AS WELL AS mass energy. So in order for the total energy of the system to be conserved,
Unparseable latex formula:

\varepsilon_k_0 + \varepsilon_m_0 = \varepsilon_k_1 + \varepsilon_m_1

, or, m0c2+m0×0=2×(m1c2+m1v) m_0 c^2 + m_0 \times 0 = 2 \times (m_1 c^2 + m_1 v)

As you can see, if m0=2m1 m_0 = 2m_1 , this equation doesn't work unless v=0 v = 0 , which would make the decay invalid, as the particle isn't really decaying at all.

In conclusion, if the mass of a neutrino were 0, it would be impossible for it to decay into any other particles as the mass of the system must decrease (and you can't have a negative mass!). The only other possible decay path would be into another massless particle, such as a photon or graviton, however neither of these decays would conserve lepton number.


Could you elaborate on your statement "the total mass of the system necessarily decreases"?

I ask because unfortunately this argument cannot be applied in this case. The question you need to ask to see why is:
"Does a frame exist in which the neutrino can be viewed as stationary?"
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 4
Original post by WishingChaff
Could you elaborate on your statement "the total mass of the system necessarily decreases"?

I ask because unfortunately this argument cannot be applied in this case. The question you need to ask to see why is:
"Does a frame exist in which the neutrino can be viewed as stationary?"


The point regarding the breaking of the conservation of lepton number still stands, however. The mass of the system could never increase without breaking the conservation of momentum, and the only other massless particles are bosons. Unless there is some way in which lepton conservation can be broken to allow a single lepton to decay into two bosons, I can't see any valid decay routes for a massless neutrino to take.

Your point raises an interesting question for me. If there exists no frame where a particle can be viewed as stationary, then how can one find a decay path in which momentum is conserved?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 5
Original post by wofldog
The point regarding the breaking of the conservation of lepton number still stands, however. The mass of the system could never increase without breaking the conservation of momentum, and the only other massless particles are bosons. Unless there is some way in which lepton conservation can be broken to allow a single lepton to decay into two bosons, I can't see any valid decay routes for a massless neutrino to take.

Your point raises an interesting question for me. If there exists no frame where a particle can be viewed as stationary, then how can one find a decay path in which momentum is conserved?


You said that "The mass of the system could never increase without breaking the conservation of momentum". However is this true in a relativistic sense? What is the momentum of a photon? Is it related to its rest mass? As an example look up pair production.

This is a key point to answering this problem. You must consider relativistic effects to answer it.
Reply 6
Original post by WishingChaff
You said that "The mass of the system could never increase without breaking the conservation of momentum". However is this true in a relativistic sense? What is the momentum of a photon? Is it related to its rest mass? As an example look up pair production.

This is a key point to answering this problem. You must consider relativistic effects to answer it.


A massless particle necessarily travels at the speed of light. This means that in its own reference frame it does not experience time. How could it spontaneously decay if it does not experience time?
Reply 7
Original post by wofldog
A massless particle necessarily travels at the speed of light. This means that in its own reference frame it does not experience time. How could it spontaneously decay if it does not experience time?


Yes well done.

A massless particle always "experiences" zero proper time elapsed over any portion of its worldline, so does not age. There can be no internal "clock" telling it when to decay on average, and no rest frame in which an intrinsic proper lifetime could be defined, so either \tau = 0 in all inertial frames, which means the particle does not ever really exist at all (decaying the same instant it might be created), or \tau = \infty in all inertial frames, meaning the particle is completely stable.

I thought this was an interesting problem. One that ties to this is the problem of pair production. Notice in my original statement I said the particle was in free space. So it is possible for massless particles to "decay" when interacting with ordinary matter. Why does the presence of matter allow for this "decay"?
Reply 8
Original post by WishingChaff

Why does the presence of matter allow for this "decay"?


A very interesting problem indeed. I'll have to sleep on that one!
Original post by wofldog
(...)
In conclusion, if the mass of a neutrino were 0, it would be impossible for it to decay into any other particles as the mass of the system must decrease (and you can't have a negative mass!). (...)


It is said that a neutrino have a mass, but it is very small. So is it possible that a neutrino decays under the circumstances you wrote?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 10
Original post by Kallisto
It is said that a neutrino have a mass, but it is very small. So is it possible that a neutrino decays under the circumstances you wrote?


I believe that neutrino 'decay' has been theorised, but not yet observed. The standard model allows for a massive neutrino to spontaneously change flavour, though I've no idea on the details of the proposed mechanism.
Original post by wofldog
I believe that neutrino 'decay' has been theorised, but not yet observed. The standard model allows for a massive neutrino to spontaneously change flavour, though I've no idea on the details of the proposed mechanism.


I have also no idea what the proposed mechanism of neutrino decay is. But as I have written above (I have to corrected the comment, as I have confused radiation with decay first) the mass must be high enough to decay, otherwise the mass of neutrino were not instable enough to decay. I guess if a neutrino is able to decay, it is the same principle as the decay of an atomic nucleus.
Reply 12
Original post by Kallisto
I have also no idea what the proposed mechanism of neutrino decay is. But as I have written above (I have to corrected the comment, as I have confused radiation with decay first) the mass must be high enough to decay, otherwise the mass of neutrino were not instable enough to decay. I guess if a neutrino is able to decay, it is the same principle as the decay of an atomic nucleus.


Indeed. A tau neutrino could theoretically decay into a lighter, muon neutrino (I think).
Original post by wofldog
Indeed. A tau neutrino could theoretically decay into a lighter, muon neutrino (I think).


So the tau neutrino has a higher mass than a muon one? I could not find anything about the masses out, except that both of them are small...
Reply 14
Original post by Kallisto
So the tau neutrino has a higher mass than a muon one? I could not find anything about the masses out, except that both of them are small...


I think the masses are as follows
Tau > Muon > Electron

However the exact values are not known

Turns out neutrino oscillation (where a neutrino changes flavour) has in fact been confirmed experimentally, as of quite recently in fact.
Original post by wofldog
I think the masses are as follows
Tau > Muon > Electron (...)


I see. After your inequality a tau neutrino decay to muon neutrino and a muon neutrino decay in an electron, right? Does that mean this electrons can theoretically be got by neutrino decay?
Reply 17
Original post by Kallisto
It is said that a neutrino have a mass, but it is very small. So is it possible that a neutrino decays under the circumstances you wrote?


Indeed it is true that neutrinos have mass as shown via neutrino oscillations. However the standard model predicts massless neutrinos. This is a very interesting branch of physics currently being researched into.

The reason neutrinos have mass is similar to the arguments used for neutral kaon particles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_particle_oscillation

The flavour eigenstates can be expanded as a linear combination of mass eigenstates of the neutrino. In fact the exact relation is:

|V> = U |m>

where U is the so called mixing matrix, |V> are my flavour eigenstates and |m> are the mass eigenstates.

Another challenge problem pertaining to this is as follows:
Consider a two state system with an orthonormal basis |1> and |2>. These two vectors are eigenvectors of the flavour operator, with |1> representing an electron neutrino and |2> representing a muon neutrino.

If neutrinos are massless, the Hamiltonian for a system like this would have been:
H = E|1><1| + E |2><2|

where E is a positive real constant. If the neutrino originally started in the state |psi(t=0)> = |1> what is the state of the system at later times t?
(edited 10 years ago)

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