Patriotism is arrogant, irrational and obstacle to human progress

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saltyjohn1
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Patriotism is the ultimate arrogance, to believe that your country is the best because you were born there.

Albert Einstein

"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"


François Fénelon
“All wars are civil wars because all men are brothers... Each one owes infinitely more to the human race than to the particular country in which he was born.”
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username1258398
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Patriotism isn't thinking your country is the best. It's just loving and supporting your country. Nothing wrong with that.
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by StrangeBanana)
Patriotism isn't thinking your country is the best. It's just loving and supporting your country. Nothing wrong with that.
Patriot: "a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors."

What is it about your country that makes it worthy of support? If it's worthyness of support is based solely on where you live/were born, then are all countries equally worthy of support?
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Mensa Member
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Wow what a great thread. Really well thought out and definitely hasn't been brought up by countless other idealists on a moral crusade throughout history. Good job OP. True original. I especially like how you've put more quotes in your argument than your own personal thought.

“Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.”
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by Mensa Member)
Wow what a great thread. Really well thought out and definitely hasn't been brought up by countless other idealists on a moral crusade throughout history. Good job OP. True original. I especially like how you've put more quotes in your argument than your own personal thought.

“Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.”
Wow. What a great post. Really subtle sarcasm which definitely hasn't be used by countless other smug, pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals on a thread thoughout TSR history. Good job "mensa member". I especially like how you provide no real argument against the statement and instead use your high IQ to ridicule those who believe that other people may have the ability to articulate better than themselves.


“Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.”

― Oscar Wilde
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Mensa Member
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(Original post by saltyjohn1)
Wow. What a great post. Really subtle sarcasm which definitely hasn't be used by countless other smug, pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals on a thread thoughout TSR history. Good job "mensa member". I especially like how you provide no real argument against the statement and instead use your high IQ to ridicule those who believe that other people may have the ability to articulate better than themselves.


“Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.”

― Oscar Wilde
I didn't need to respond to other people's opinions. Your first sentence is a lie. Patriotism isn't what you tried to define it as, so you're wrong.
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by Mensa Member)
I didn't need to respond to other people's opinions. Your first sentence is a lie. Patriotism isn't what you tried to define it as, so you're wrong.
Who are you to decide which dictionary's definitions are the most valid? Which would you propose that one cites definitions from?
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by Mensa Member)
I didn't need to respond to other people's opinions. Your first sentence is a lie. Patriotism isn't what you tried to define it as, so you're wrong.
In any case, how can a question be wrong? It can be invalid, but surely it cannot be wrong. A question is not a statement, and hence cannot be true or false. If you are a Mensa member, then my respect for the IQ as a test for intelligence has truly declined.
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Viva Emptiness
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I don't see anything wrong with patriotism. I'm proud to live in a country where I can largely speak my mind, have agency over my own body and choose to live my life as I see fit. I would be more than happy to do whatever I could to protect that way of life.
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Machop
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Patriotism is a load of bull****
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by saltyjohn1)
Patriotism is the ultimate arrogance, to believe that your country is the best because you were born there.

Albert Einstein

"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action!"


François Fénelon
“All wars are civil wars because all men are brothers... Each one owes infinitely more to the human race than to the particular country in which he was born.”
What you're talking about is closer to nationalism. Patriotism is supporting your country because you like things about it, while nationalism is supporting your country simply due to affinity of birth. They're difficult to tease apart at times, but they are conceptually distinct.

Moreover, being a patriot doesn't mean that you hold supremacist beliefs about your country. It's possible to be patriotic on the basis of features which many other countries share.
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
I don't see anything wrong with patriotism. I'm proud to live in a country where I can largely speak my mind, have agency over my own body and choose to live my life as I see fit. I would be more than happy to do whatever I could to protect that way of life.
So your proud of the western world? Not the UK in particular?
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Bill_Gates
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Agreed patriotism is only for the small minded. But rest assured many of them still exist and through propaganda many will continue to exist.
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by TurboCretin)
What you're talking about is closer to nationalism. Patriotism is supporting your country because you like things about it, while nationalism is supporting your country simply due to affinity of birth. They're difficult to tease apart at times, but they are conceptually distinct.

Moreover, being a patriot doesn't mean that you hold supremacist beliefs about your country. It's possible to be patriotic on the basis of features which many other countries share.
Nationalism and patriotism are listed as synonyms in the dictionary, if you a source for your difference please quote it so I can understand where you're coming from. If Britain and France were to go to war, would you wish for Britain to win? If so, would you be willing to fight to make it so?
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by saltyjohn1)
So your proud of the western world? Not the UK in particular?
Perhaps, though I also have a strong fondness for our typically British traits e.g our wit, sense of humour, stiff upper lip, love of queuing etc. Not to mention the NHS - I don't really see how loving any of these things is arrogant, irrational or an obstacle to human progress?
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saltyjohn1
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
Perhaps, though I also have a strong fondness for our typically British traits e.g our wit, sense of humour, stiff upper lip, love of queuing etc. Not to mention the NHS - I don't really see how loving any of these things is arrogant, irrational or an obstacle to human progress?
Liking some things about your country doesn't make you a patriot. I would hate to live in Saudi Arabia because of the social backwardness, authoritarian government, high religiosity etc , but if I was made a citizen, and I liked the weather, the art, and the music; it wouldn't make me a patriot of Saudi Arabia.

A patriot is "a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors."
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by saltyjohn1)
Nationalism and patriotism are listed as synonyms in the dictionary, if you a source for your difference please quote it so I can understand where you're coming from. If Britain and France were to go to war, would you wish for Britain to win? If so, would you be willing to fight to make it so?
Why do you ask? I wouldn't class myself as a patriot, so (correct me if I'm wrong) the questions seem moot.

I think that countries tend to have far too complex a history to really take such a black/white stance on them. I like some things about England, and I think its inhabitants have produced some amazing ideas, but some aspects of its culture and particularly its history are very unsavoury. I think that this is a trite fact of pretty much any country you could name.

My source was just a quick look at the wikipedia pages for patriotism and nationalism. I'm sympathetic to your point about the definitions, but sometimes dictionary definitions have limited use as authorities for nitty-gritty discussions because they're based on everyday usage. Words like 'patriotism' have a great propensity for misuse in everyday language, because most people use them without thinking.
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skunkboy
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You shouldn't have said anything just like that. Are you against military guys?

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Observatory
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(Original post by saltyjohn1)
Patriotism is the ultimate arrogance, to believe that your country is the best because you were born there.
What if you believe your country is best (or better than some others) for other reasons?
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Tom_green_day
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People who think quoting famous people constitutes an argument, or take their opinions solely from the opinions of famous people they respect, are
arrogant, irrational and obstacles to human progress

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