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Should islanders in Shetland, Orkney, Western Isles get their desired referenda?

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Original post by Jordooooom
Based on what?


Every single poll.

Logic.

Reality.

Also, you'd keep the Queen anyway.

Scots aren't idiots.

You're staying in. :-)

Lets get along.
Reply 41
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Jordooooom
Original post by EarthlingyThingy
Every single poll.


Oh.. You mean every single poll that shows the gap is rapidly closing?
Reply 42
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Swanbow
19
The Shetlands and the Orkneys have quite a distinct history, similar to the Isle of Mann in many regards. Perhaps giving them Crown Dependency status would be the answer? (Considering that Scotland won't vote for independence)

If Scotland did vote for independence, Holyrood could also give the island a degree of self autonomy like Denmark gives the Faroe Islands.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 43
Avatar for James222
James222
3
if they do, I plan on invading them with 50 people im going to hire of craigslist.

Declare myself king, develop nuclear weapons. Invade Norway, use the oil resources to buy sweden and finland.Invade Germany, fund a coup in Russia. Get my russian proxy to invade central asia. use my european empire to invade rest of europe.


while the entire world is trying to fight my empire, I have a secret fund where I develop technology to travel to jupiters moon. Hire 50 models from craigslist and move to one of jupiters moon.

Declare myself King of the Universe.
Original post by Jordooooom
Oh.. You mean every single poll that shows the gap is rapidly closing?


Come poll day there's no chance that the fence-sitters that at the moment are skewing the results will actually vote yes.They'll simple not vote. Reminds me of the BNP situation last election. So many talkers. Come poll day, hardly any actually bothered to vote.

The same happened to UKIP to.

Etc.

Not going to happen. If it does (and I'll be gutted), remind me of this post and I'll give you £50.

Srs.

:smile:
Original post by Jordooooom
Based on what?


Every opinion poll ever conducted on the topic for over 30 years bar one spurious SNP commissioned panelbase poll last August.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014
Original post by Jordooooom
Oh.. You mean every single poll that shows the gap is rapidly closing?


Rapidly?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

An increase of 3% after one year if SNP campaigning is hardly rapid is it?
Original post by St. Brynjar
A friend of mine is doing his dissertation on this topic. I have familial ties to Shetland and the general impression I gauge is that the islanders want to remain part of the UK but separate from Scotland, as a dependency. I've never noticed any anti-Scottish sentiments - by and large the people I've met and spoken to have no apathy towards the country - but their separate culture and tradition leads them to hope for greater autonomy. I'd fully support a referendum.

Have you and your family signed the petition at the Scottish Parliament website? If enough people push to get these islands referenda, they will have to be held. I think a week after the Scottish referendum is exactly the right time to hold them.

Otherwise there will be loads of politicians obscuring the issue, saying let's negotiate a better deal for Shetland (either if Scotland goes independent or it doesn't), and let's work in terms of the 'Lerwick Declaration' and 'Our Islands Our Future', blah blah blah.

Of course the details of any dependency will also have to be thrashed out, but as you say, most people in Shetland want to stay in the UK but separate from Scotland. That needs to be established as being the undeniable popular will. Then the discussion can be focused on how that can best be achieved.

(Or if the popular will goes in another direction, then fine - but there needs to be a big democratic input through a referendum.)
(edited 10 years ago)
How about Cameron goes all Putin on them and takes these Islands.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Rapidly?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

An increase of 3% after one year if SNP campaigning is hardly rapid is it?


I'm not sure if you're somehow averaging them, but comparing the data here:

March 20-24 2014 - 15ppt for the Union

March 18-22 2013 - 10ppt for the Union

I'm not seeing any gap closure at all!
Original post by EarthlingyThingy
Every single poll.

Logic.
Reality.
Also, you'd keep the Queen anyway.
Scots aren't idiots.
You're staying in. :-)
Lets get along.

You haven't convinced me. Unless the YeSNP support falls sharply in the near future, the Commonwealth Games will be worth several % at least to the Yesniks. That, by the way, is why they insisted on having the referendum in 2014 rather than 2013. It had nothing to do with the Battle of Bannockburn, which was fought in the spring of 1314, not the autumn. The SNP actually threatened to boycott the referendum if it was held in 2013.

If Better Together take their eye off the ball, they could mess it up. I saw recently that they have got a list of 500 questions they want to put to Alex Salmond's government. That's ridiculous. Focus on two or three.

1) the financial question - post-independence, how long will Scotland stay out of insolvency? will people's savings be safe?

2) the islands question - will they hold referenda in the islands a week after the Scottish vote? the case is easy here: what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

Focus your forces on the enemy's weak points. Not 500 weak points. Just 1 or 2 or 3.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 51
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L i b
19
Original post by Aoide
Yes but I wouldn't include becoming an independent country as an option. The arguments for allowing groups to become independent as soon as they wish it are emotionally satisfying but there needs to be a line on how smaller groups this applies to.


They could exist as an independent state, so why not?

I accept that perhaps in theory you could argue that a small town couldn't be sustainably independent and would inevitably suck resources from the larger neighbour, but that is the only extent I can see a de minimis principle as rationally satisfying. That wouldn't apply to Orkney, Shetland or the Western Isles, which are largely self-sustaining, already have clearly separate administrative structures (local authorities, separate health boards, etc).

For my part, I disagree with allowing secession referendums at all, one of the reasons being because they are allowed only in a discriminatory way.

there are a number of situations where independence is economically beneficial and I don't think small groups should be allowed to benefit from being part of a larger entity when it suits them and then cut lose when situations change.


And this principle shouldn't apply to Scotland, despite it almost perfectly summing up exactly what the SNP want?

Scotland behave like a distinct entity and independence would improve their ability to self govern, I'm not sure what justification the islands have for seeing themselves as a distinct country.


Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are all politically distinct, just as Scotland is. But you risk falling into an is/ought argument here. For a start, you're essentially saying the government should only grant these secession referendums to distinctive political entities. Meanwhile it is also the government which essentially creates distinct entities or allows them to exist within a state.
Original post by Observatory
I'm not sure if you're somehow averaging them, but comparing the data here:

March 20-24 2014 - 15ppt for the Union

March 18-22 2013 - 10ppt for the Union

I'm not seeing any gap closure at all!


SNP supporters have obviously once again cherry picked there data over the last few months. The general trend however is no difference.
Here's a map showing the three island groups:
(edited 10 years ago)
How would a Western Isles' decision to stay in the UK affect Scottish claims to North Sea oil and gas?
Reply 55
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TheBugle
2
:lol: at the number of people who signed the poll off with England and Wales.

Surely it's up to the people of these Isles to choose whether they want self-determination. And from what I know, there is very little separatist movement.

Are people from rUK really this cynical?
Original post by TheBugle
:lol: at the number of people who signed the poll off with England and Wales.

I think you mean the petition published by the Scottish Parliament, which is open to anyone to sign. Most signatories are putting down their country as either "Scotland" or "UK". I have no idea how many who have put "UK" are in Scotland - probably quite a lot. It's true that some people have put "England", "Wales", "Canada", etc. Good! It's nice to know that so many people support the islanders having the right to decide.

Original post by TheBugle
Surely it's up to the people of these Isles to choose whether they want self-determination.

Exactly!! That's exactly what the petition is for. It's to urge the Scottish Government to hold referenda on each of the island groups, one week after the Scottish referendum. The available options will be 1) go independent, 2) stay in Scotland; and if Scotland goes independent, there will also be a third option: 3) leave Scotland and stay in the UK.

Anybody who wants the people of the isles to be able to decide should sign the petition. It doesn't matter what part of the world you're from. Only residents of each island group will get a vote in the referendum to decide the status of that island group.

It's not a petition in favour of independence!

Original post by TheBugle
And from what I know, there is very little separatist movement.

There is strong independent cultural feeling, and disquiet about possible Scottish independence, especially in Shetland and Orkney. If the Scottish result is "yes", I think Shetland will vote to stay in the UK. Orkney may well do too.

It is right that independence should be on the ballot, to give people a proper choice and because there are quite a few people who support independence, and even if they are only 10% they deserve a voice. There are others who want to hear all the arguments on the range of options before deciding.

To the person who said islanders are Scottish, what does that mean? People are Scottish if they feel Scottish. Most Shetlanders and many Orcadians don't.

It makes sense to say we are British, because we are British citizens. We are not Scottish citizens.

As for the idea that independence referenda shouldn't be held because they are held "in a discriminatory way", what's wrong with discrimination in this context?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 57
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TheBugle
2
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3201771



:dontknow:
(edited 10 years ago)
It would give another footballing country that England, Scotland or Wales could be embarrassed by, alongside the Faroe Islands and San Marino.
Original post by Observatory
How would a Western Isles' decision to stay in the UK affect Scottish claims to North Sea oil and gas?

Here's a map. Oil fields in red, gas in green. According to this article in the Independent, 67% of Scotland's oil reserves lie off the coasts of Shetland and Orkney. So if Scotland goes independent, then Shetland and Orkney staying in the UK will cut the amount of oil Scotland gets by two-thirds.Scotland would find itself in big financial trouble.

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